173 thoughts on “PTR 3.3: Culling the Herd, Cower Revised”

1. I’m kinda liking the sound of CtH so far. It doesn’t sound like something that would scale with higher crit rating as in, works fine with lower crit rates with a ten second window, along with kill command, sounds like a nice little reliable boost for pvp/pve. Not much but I like solid damage boosts.

   The placement on the other hand of what trees get it and where and if it’ll be tethered to other skills is what I’m concerned about.

   Anyone on the ptr know just exactly what stats are scaling with pets now and how much?

2. @ Ryai,

   I remember the one time my druid was feared by a hunter I was like, “lolwut?” only to realize she’s classified as a beast instead now.

   @ Palla,

   No idea. I avoided that Isle like it was a plague….>.>

3. Palla:
   Quel Danas was part of patch 2.4. That patch went live on March 25. Wrath of the Lich King later came out that year November 13. Patch 3.0, the Pre-release patch for Wrath was October 14th.

   However, Blizzard is following a much more predictable trend. I’ve been guestimating Wrath’s patch post 3.1 pretty well (not saying I’m a whiz at it) but they seem to follow a 4-5 month-ish trend now. (They admitted that they waited too long for 3.1 to come out)

   3.3: Is expected sometime this December & we do know it’s Wrath final content patch (major). Which seems to point that 4.0 will be released Sometime possibly in Feb/March. We do know Cataclysm will be out before next Blizzcon (which only occurs in August or October; before November as lots of people expect) and that Blizzard isn’t planning to have a long wait again as it leads to alot more complaints from players “with nothing to do”.

   Again, it’s all speculation aside from the official stuff, but thats my opinion.

4. WoWWiki has a number of pages with patch dates for the different expansions, such as this one for TBC and this one for the current expansion.

   I think Rikaku is being rather optimistic with an estimated time frame of less than 3 months for the 3.3->4.0. Don’t forget that the whole F&F Alpha and a fair chunk of the beta cycle have to happen before the live servers will see a bridging patch. Blizzard have also pointed out a few times that they have learned from their mistake in not giving people enough time to explore Naxxramas in vanilla WoW before the bridging patch for TBC was released.

   Allowing at least a 6-7 month gap, similar to the gap between 2.4 and 3.0 seems more realistic, particularly given that Sunwell was only a 6 boss dungeon, while Icecrown is going to be twice that size.

   I agree that we’re likely to see 3.3 go live some time in December, but after that I would expect the Cataclysm F&F Alpha to start up around March and the closed beta around May or so. Then a bridging patch in July with a Cataclysm release in August. If there is a Blizzcon next year (which isn’t a given unless Blizzard have something specific to announce, such as the name of their new MMO), then we’d probably hear about what is coming in 3.1 and maybe 3.2.

   That kind of time frame would give more casual raiding guilds a chance to have a solid crack at Icecrown before the bridging patch is released, while the cutting edge guilds would likely be given beta keys to allow Blizzard to get some serious testing in on the Cataclysm raid content (and at least some of the leading raiders would be given alpha keys before that).

5. We were actually talking about that on Twitter the other day, and my guess was around yours, Nimizar. I do think the Alpha and probably the beta will start before your estimation, judging from their own desire to start the beta by winter, but other then that I agree.

   Then again that got me thinking…..Nimizar, you recall them saying the time between Naxx and the bridging patch was to short, and I remember that. I also remember them saying that the time between Sunwell and the bridging patch there was to long. Most likely it’ll be a 4-5 month waiting period after 3.3 goes live before the bridge, and then the usual month or so wait before Cataclysm.

   But….this is going to be one interesting bridging patch, to say the least. Are they going to introduce all the new changes in the bridge, including the ones to Azeroth, or just the talent and skill changes? Not that it matters, those changes are going to be massive enough for us hunters.

6. As I was strolling down the road just now ((Yes, at two AM.)) something occurred to me which made me violently sick to my stomach. Avoidance is gone for PvP. 75% damage AoE damage reduction, gone. AoE caps have been raised by ten. TEN TIMES. Pets are already taking some serious damage in PvP. Right now it is workable so long as it is JUST the AoE damage pouring in and no one is focusing on them at the same time. But we’re about to see an AoE damage INCREASE, and our pets are going to have roughly ZERO defense against it. Even WITH a talented cower, pets are about to explode.

   Unfortunately, I’ll have to wait for 3.3 to go live to test this. As anyone who has been to the test realms will tell you, they are just about the worst place to test high end PvP, especially with premades.

   *shudders* Premades.

7. Nimz:
   Actually I meant to type Nov/Dec – Fed/March. Which is 4 months at the minimum. Still yes optimisitic, but not overly gregarious. However, I have heard from some friends (in reputable places) that testing is already being done on Cataclysm, so alpha may actually start this winter. I wouldn’t expect it to be so late in the year before Alpha starts. Perhaps beta (closed) will start in March.

   It’s very hard to say since this expansion is alot of new skills, but re-vamped old-world. It’s hard to say just how “hard” that is to do XD

   But Blizzard has already stated they’re not not gonna do a 6-7 month gap again. They considered that “too long”. 6 months was the gap between 3.0 and 3.1; a time-frame gap Blizzards considered to be too long and slow and got criticized for. That’s why we see patches every 4-5 months now. I wouldn’t expect that to change.

   But that’s me ;)

   Palla:
   By bridging you mean 4.0 right?
   It’s hard to say if we’ll get talent points this time. According to Blizzcon all the talent trees are getting pruned. (Again, going by what Blizzcon panel said) Alot of the talents that provided “passive” bonuses are being moved to part of the “Mastery” system (or something along those lines). In essence, Blizzard wanted the talent trees to actually provide more “visual” talents.

   I don’t believe we’ll get the changes to Azeroth though. What we’ll get is probably some precursor story. Like a bunch of fire suddenly shooting up from the ground, black dragons wreaking havok and such.

8. Is it the .0 patches? I mean the patches just before the expansion that give us all the new features coming out. I just refer to them as bridging patches, since they update everything to be on par with the expansion.

   I think we’ll HAVE to have new talents, Rikaku. I don’t mean down five more points new talents, I mean new talents to fill in the trees for all the new voids every class is going to have. A lot of what are talent points now are going to be part of the passive mastery system, as you said, meaning that we’ll either be getting at least a couple of new talents to fill the void, or, well, the void.

   Hunters in particular are either going to see some talents reworked to fit with energy, or just changed completely. Oughta be interesting.

9. Oh, meant to toss in that I totally forgot about the events taking place before expansions……….

10. @Palla: I’m pretty sure the fixed AoE caps are currently high enough that most players can’t reach them with less than 10 targets (although presumably the raiders in top end gear are getting there fairly regularly, otherwise Blizz wouldn’t be changing the mechanic).

    GC did say the change would probably be a nerf to things like mage solo AoE farming (he didn’t give an exact number of mobs where the new mechanic leads to a lower per-target damage cap than the existing system since that will vary depending on the player’s gear level, but I assume he meant that it would consistently be lower in cases where mages are riding around collecting 20+ lower level mobs by proximity aggro before nuking them down with Arcane Explosion).

    So I wouldn’t expect AoE damage in BGs and Wintergrasp to be going up all that much – most of the players in those battles wouldn’t have been running up against the existing cap anyway. If anything, it may come down a bit in bigger brawls involving 20+ people and assorted pets on each side.

11. I’m sure warlocks will get a heap of talent changes to work in with their new soul shard mechanic as well.

    As for my suggested delay in getting the F&F Alpha and the closed beta started, part of my reason for that is that I doubt Blizzard will want to overshadow the release of the pinnacle content for Wrath with too much Cataclysm info.

    I could definitely see the alpha starting within 6-8 weeks of 3.3 though, so depending on exactly when 3.3 is released, I guess it would be conceivable to see the alpha starting as early as mid-January.

12. I’m going to take your word on that, Nimizar. I know I’ve already seen some pretty big numbers off of AoEs even with the current cap. I’m not really worried about the low end PvPers, it’s the high end, top of the line PvP or encroaching PvE mages that give me goose bumps.

13. Oh! And the point I was trying to make, and totally forgot…..it’s still a decrease in pet survivability coupled with an overall increase to AoE effectiveness, which was where the decrease or nerf occurred. I just kind of have wonder how that made sense at Blizzard HQ….

14. Palla:
    “I think we’ll HAVE to have new talents, Rikaku. I don’t mean down five more points new talents, I mean new talents to fill in the trees for all the new voids every class is going to have.”

    Oh most definitely. I agree with that too, and I apologize for not being clear.

    I just meant that if Blizz was going to cause talent chaos then Cataclysm is most likely the most-likely expansion for this to happen in a pre-release patch. That perhaps the new talents won’t be something we have a chance to have in 4.0. Perhaps 4.0 will come, we have our same 3.3 talents, but instead on the night of release they throw out Patch 4.0.1 and give us our new talents for Cataclysm.

    After all, releases tend to fall on Tuesdays… ;)

    Oh and yes Palla, the .0 patchs are the expansion patches. =)

15. Thank you, Rikaku, I couldn’t remember if they were the .0′s or if they did .9′s for them. And if they are going to do it for 4.0 then they’ll wait until the conclusion of the last arena season, and THEN toss in the massive change. My vote is on that one.

16. For both Burning Crusade and Wrath, the new talent trees were released in the bridging patches (i.e. 41 point talents arrived in 2.0, 51 point talents arrived in 3.). All class mechanic and spell changes also arrived in the bridging patch.

    For Wrath, the final TBC arena season closed before the bridging patch, and the first Wrath arena season didn’t start until well after the expansion itself came out (although I would expect a shorter expansion->first arena season gap this time around). In addition, all TBC raids were severely nerfed when the bridging patch was released (something like a 30% reduction in boss health). The whole achievement system was also added in 3.0 rather than waiting for the expansion.

    In both previous cases, the expansions were only required to gain access to the new zones, level past the old level cap and to take up any new professions, races or classes.

    Cataclysm makes this a bit trickier since they don’t have the easy chokepoints for restricting access that they had with the Dark Portal to Outland and the boats and zeppelins to Northrend. It isn’t quite as clear what content Blizzard will be restricting to folks with the expansion and what will be available to everyone (particularly since Blizzard have said that the modified terrain will be available to everyone).

    My guess is that we will at least have to wait until the expansion for:
    - worgen/goblin characters
    - new race/class combinations
    - access to Archaeology
    - ability to level past 80

    The things I definitely expect to see in the 4.0 bridging patch are just the mechanics changes:
    - hunter focus
    - warlock soul shards
    - mastery system and associated talent tree revamps (but no mastery on gear at this point)

    And then there are a whole pile of updates that relate to the Azeroth changes, that I expect to be present in the 4.0 patch files, but not enabled until Cataclysm is actually launched:
    - new zones and map and terrain changes in Azeroth (Access to new zones for people without the expansion could be restricted completely, or else just by hiding all the quest NPCs)
    - flying in old Azeroth (this is linked to the previous point, as the ability to fly won’t go live until the new terrain goes live. It will be interesting to see if Blizz restrict flying in Azeroth at all, or if they just let it be a matter of anyone being allowed to fly in Azeroth as soon they learn how to fly at all)
    - quest updates in old Azeroth (as with flying, the new quests require that the new terrain has been put in place first)

    Finally, I’m not clear on how thorough Blizz plan to be in retroactively applying their changes to itemisation. For previous itemisation changes they left existing gear alone, leaving the situation to resolve itself as people upgraded their gear. In this case, though, they’re already doing a cleanup pass over the old world quest rewards and drops to ensure they still make sense in light of current itemisation, so they may do the same for TBC and Wrath gear as well.

17. As far as old world changes go, I think we’ll see an event larger then the two before the previous expansions before hand to introduce the changes to old world Azeroth. I don’t think the actual changes will happen until the release of Cataclysm though.

    As for itemization, I suspect that any ‘hunter’ or ‘enhancement shaman’ gear will just have intellect removed and added onto other stats……well, agility and stamina anyway. And remember that attack power is going away too, so they’ll already be doing a pass on a ton of gear for that reason.

    They MAY do the new race/class combination before Cataclysm proper, but pretty much everything else I agree with. Flying won’t happen until the old world changes are made, and I don’t think the old world will change until Cataclysm is out. As for quest updates, I see that being a MASSIVE undertaking, which I don’t mind. Try to remember that for the most part, quest rewards in old Azeroth suck. It’ll be nice to actually see some real options for quest rewards.

18. I think we can safely assume that all power/talent/itemization changes will take place a good month or so before Cat (possibly even two). This gives them a while to work out the major PvP and DPS kinks before the real product goes live. It will be like a big patch for player interest AND they have done it before this way so they know it works.

    Even though they have said otherwise, I kind of expect them to do the new Hunter chages before then since it is so drastic of a change. Since it will be a large alteration in playstyle, we may get a month or so of being way overpowered and then get nerfed all to hell.

    I’m expecting a June-ish release for Cataclysm personally. Logically, it would be later than that (based on the previous two) but consumer attention spans just won’t hold much longer than that I believe. Although the release of other Blizzard projects may alter that prediction.

19. Actually, that’s a good point neutrallo – with the mechanics changes this time around being so much greater than those in TBC and Wrath, having 6-8 weeks of tweaks between 4.0 and the Cataclysm release rather than just the 4 weeks or so we had with the last two expansions is a definite possibility.

    That time frame would also be appropriate if they decide to wind up to it with a bigger event than they have in the past.

20. Ok, to people thinking that cower is now worthless, they are forgetting that pets are still tanks to alot of players. For lvling up, cower gives a great dmg reduction much like a turtles shell shield. For those of use who are lvl 80 and like to do xtreme soloing, this is just plain awesome.

21. I’m pretty sure your not talking to me, since I’ve stated that cower will have ample solo usage, but I’ll bite anyway. The problem isn’t that it isn’t useful in some situations, the problem is that it isn’t useful for all situations. In fact it’s only real useful application is the afore mentioned soloing, or for when your pet is tanking in a five man for a stationary boss. From a raiding perspective, slowing your pet down when the fire is around isn’t usually a smart option, and any raider worth his salt is going to try to maximize DPS, meaning that improved cower isn’t an option. And you obviously have my PvP point of view, where willingly slowing down your pet is just not a good idea at all.

    And unfortunately Xan, six seconds is just not a long enough duration to be of much help anywhere. I don’t know what, but inexplicably all of the hunter’s defensive durations suck serious ass. The pet durations I can sort of explain, but the player durations I can’t.

22. It seems like unlike the majority of hunters here, I LOVE the new Cower ^^;;
    I have been dabbling in pet tanking and soloing instances for a while now, and the new version will be a welcome addition to my bag-o’-tricks that make my guildies go “O_o I didn’t know a hunter could do that” lol (I do wish that it was a longer duration however, 6sec seems a bit too short a duration imo)

    No, I don’t like the snare component, and would greatly prefer it to be debuff to pet dps, so IMO blizz should change the new Cower so that it reads “Reduces the damage your pet deals and receives by 40%”. This would make more logical sense, since a cowering pet would be less focused on smacking the target, as well as enabling 2/2 ImpCower to become useful by eliminating the dps debuff. This reworking would answer the complaints I have read in this thread and elsewhere about the new Cower, while also keeping it from becoming just a baseline Shell Shield ^^
    ………….
    Something I’ve been thinking about though is could this change to Cower be in response to the change in Misdirection? I don’t think anyone else has addressed this issue so far here, but the new MD gives the hunter the potential to MD about 300% more threat to the tank per CD. There has been no change to the CD of MD itself so far, so that means that if MD is used every CD, a hunter will be able to transfer 13%+ of their threat to tank (considerably more if a BM hunter syncs with BW.) For those who haven’t bothered to read patch notes, the new MD will redirect all threat from the hunter for 4sec instead of the current 3x charges
    This change should also make AOE soloing brainless as the newMD will be able to redirect all threat from Volley to your pet instead of only 3x arrows from said Volley right now.
    ……………

    Since I have yet to be able to login to the PTR, can anyone who has access please tell us whether CtH stacks with Ferocious Inspiration? Getting 6% dps for me and 3% for pet every time my pet crits sounds rather nice ^^

23. Many of the tail sweeps with knockback effects will no longer hit players’ pets.

    Oh thank God. My guild’s last Ony run was bordering on the ridiculous. “Devilsaur in to the whelp caves!” Since pets automatically position themselves at the rear, our pets were CONSTANTLY getting knocked back- our leader finally just asked us to hold our pets at our side. Everybody’s damage got gimped (particularly the poor BM specced hunters), but it was the only way we could win the fight…

    I’m going to hold off judgement on Cower until I see how it plays. I can see it being valuable as a way of keeping your pet up through an unlucky Whirlwind, but we’ll see.