I’m beginning to feel like I should just direct you guys to read MMO Champion and leave it at that. The only real news happening is the PTR notes and what Ghostcrawler has been saying about us on the forums, and I haven’t been playing other than my Argent Tournament dailies, so I don’t have many personal experiences to add.
But then I realize that the value of this blog isn’t news — it’s discussion. So I’ll round up the hunter and pet stuff, and add my insignificant comments, and then toss it over to you and you can add the real value.
Don’t you love how I exploit you? *grin*
So. Ghostcrawler has been involved in an interesting thread on the hunter mechanics over on the WoW Damage Dealing forum. He’s responded a few times, which I’ll quote for convenience, but if you want to the full story you should head over and read all the player discussion as well.
On Intimidation, Kill Command, and Tranquilizing Shot:
Aarulan, I think those are all good points. I can’t go into detail on all of them, but for starters Intimidation could be a lot better and Kill Command could be as fun as say Lock and Load instead of a macro’d ability. We’re not going to be in a big hurry to buff Tranq Shot. It might be a better way to go to nerf all dispels to something more like that so that they didn’t trivially undo buffs, debuffs and CC.
On the popularity of Beast Mastery:
BM is actually more popular than MM among level 80s. BM is also the most popular secondary spec, though maybe it could just be to play Pokemon with Spirit Beasts.
And (further down that same post), more about nerfs and the timeline for hunter buffs:
When we do nerfs, it’s because they typically affect a lot more players than just your class. If we nerf a spec, you often have alternatives. When we fail to nerf a spec, the other guy typically does not.
I like Lym’s answer:
Q u o t e:
As mentioned earlier by a very admirable and intelligent poster, just because you don’t see the changes, it doesn’t mean there aren’t any being made.Would you prefer Blizzard to announce all these changes for your class, and then find problems with them and have to swap back again?
When designing and implementing changes to a system or game, it’s always best not to announce changes until you’re sure they will work.
So nothing world-shattering, but a bit of a glimpse inside the giant disembodied floating brain of Blizzard. (Err .. I mean the design process, not Ghostcrawler himself. He’s a crab, not a disembodied brain.)
I choose you, Spirit Beast!
On another note…intimidation really does need some changes, it’s great for solo’ing and pvp, but I don’t think a tank would appreciate it in a raid setting. Kill Command is pretty much a “Press this to make your pet do more damage” spell. I like that blizzard’s finely fiddling around with BM. =D
I choose you, Devilsaur!
I have been saying for quite a while now and ill say it again…we need something diffrent to BM spec to help and not these changes. Give us a new shot! or a new move related to the pet in some way!
Btw…the part about alot of people being BM…I think his data might be off…I see very few BM’s now and days and when I do they ussualy just say “LOL shiny pet dont help your Dee pee ess!!”
/sigh
/Palm
I choose you spirit beast!
I suspect — although I have no data — that there are a decent number of 80s like me who hang out in Beast Mastery and don’t do a whole lot. I’m just doing the Argent Tournament right now, and occasionally some fishing dailies, and I putter around doing low level quests for achievements every now and then. I hardly need to be uber for any of that.
Pft lots of lv 80 BM hunters?
Lemme go find what GC or whomever fed him this information was smoking. Doing pvp- pre 60+ on Rosa and Yas, I saw a decent mix of all hunter speccs. Heading into 60+ there is a SIGNIFICANT DROP imo of BM hunters. For all the WSG runs Yas had to just grind for 30 marks, I could count about 5 bm hunters. Maybe a few more.
For AB? Again, 5 atm.
For AV? Again. Five- and always I am ONE of them.
I mean granted I was more focused on staying hidden with the flag on the ally side’s roof [three minutes lol ..] or kiting, fding and doing all that I could to fight an OP lock in AV… but I’m not so caught up in my fighting to notice or rather, not notice, the numbers going on around me. It’s easy to tell a resto from a balance, feral from etc, retlol from protlol, ogodImdeadDK from ogodImdyingDK…
And the same goes for hunters. I mean when the guy next to you dies from firey explosions, you know it’s either a warlock, a mage or an SV hunter.
Or Death Knights learned how to shoot fire from their eyes.
And while I quest and all that on Ryai, when I do touch her. Admitedly I am having more fun on Zeldei in pvp and questing- or my lower hunters than playing at 80, even if I am induced into murloc-esque swearing fits that make a sailor blush.
ButBlizz trying to pull the wool over our eyes over oh BM is moar popularz than u no guyz hur.
Well gee, I wonder what specc would allow for easier soloing of old world dungeons.
I mean hell I put on my pvp gear and I get the buffs and if we play it right we can do AQ40 for crystal drops. Ok sure we failed -hard- on the first boss. But we didn’t know he could MC split.
[he seemed to love mcing me tho and wheeee oneshotting friends is fun!]
I mean I’m sure, SV and MM could solo old dungeons- but BM has it easier so what are people going to do? Roll BM most likely, for the more pet talents, more +pet talents and yada yada.
If they actually show evidence of RAIDING BEAST MASTER HUNTERS. I MIGHT actually get interested in playing Ryai.
But feel I’m to far back in the dust with people offering 3-5k dps for heroics and I am still unsure if Ryai pulls 1.8k or 2.4k :/
I think the only reason people still have BM secondary is because “I like my SB/Devilsaur/etc!” And not so much for anything else. Ever since the arena tourn. I’ve seen a rise in BM numbers in PvP, but even now I (in fact just last night) I got a “still BM?” whisper from a raid member who seemed concerned i was going to suck at dps.
Until I blew the rest of the raid Hunters (SV and MM’s) out of the water.
Ryai:
You can raid as BM. I’m not even a big raider, but I pull about 4.6kdps consistently with my current gear and spec as BM. Wolf pet. Im sure SV could do better but meh XD
Please direct your attention to my post on the official forums.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19820327060&postId=198185874135&sid=1#154
Before anyone asks, yes I do have a raiding spec and a soloing spec. I even have a gear set for soloing and raiding. I am all BM, all the time.
I’m sure that GC’s statement that there’s a lot of BM hunters is true. Even people who wouldn’t think of raiding with it have it as a secondary spec for leveling or, yes, exotics. I have no doubt that that information comes from survey data, not ‘what people have told him’. It’s the easiest way to collect data.
The important thing to point out there was that GC was saying SECONDARY spec. He wasn’t denying that there aren’t anywhere near as many BM anymore. What he did say was that there are more BM then Marksman, which I don’t doubt. Marksman is below Survival, but not massively ahead of beast master. So people are going to be ‘survival’ for serious, and BM for fun.
To be honest, there’s a lot of BM hunters…
I don’t think it is their main specc tho. I’m sure you think: “OMG! That Hunter Haz a Spirit Beast! He’s a BM Hunter! Ewwww!” Please, Don’t say that. As a BM/MM hunter with my Spirit Beast and with my actual gear I can easily do around 4.5k DPS in a raid with all the Buffs. I can do a lot more as a Surv/MM Hunter.
Most hunters just hang in Dalaran with their Spirit Beast out because they want to show off with their “Shiny Pet”. You know why I’m saying that? Because I do it and I see alot of Hunters with Spirit Beasts and when I inspect them, they have lvl 226/232/245 items and they have another specc, wich is Surv/MM.
Not a lot of hunters raid as BM/MM, only because for now, the “good” PvE speccs are Surv/MM and MM (I don’t know if you put points in another tree if you’re a PvE MM hunter, I’ve never checked my friend’s talent tree). But, what about Spirit beasts and other exotic pets like the Devilsaurs? Their special attacks make them do more DPS. Many hunters will use Wolves because they will boost your Attack Power, that’s the pet I use when I raid so…
I remember in BC. When I was raiding Kara and ZA as a BM/MM with my Merciless PvP gear and I was still outDPS’ing everybody! I remember when I would PvP as a BM/MM hunter…Ah…I wish Blizz would bring back BC… Well I’m not complaining at all, just saying! :P I wish they would just re-make Kill Command like it was in BC. :D
Errrrr, I have never played SV for seriousness, ok once until i tried MM again… I get WAY better numbers for MM than SV and , at least on our server, there are an equal number of SV and MM, with BM just a little below that (35%,35% and 30%) ntm the best hunter dps in my guild is MM, and i can get good numbers as a BM too, but, don’t hit me, i personally like MM better, it’s fun for me trying to time my CDs correctly instead of spamming Steady until Arcane or Wrath are off CD… this is also why i DON’T want to switch to stupid focus, mana/cds work just fine for us blizz…
Yeah but the thing is this still doesn’t make it right when you have to roll another specc to either be viable in pvp, or pve or arena. All should be viable in some way but it seems SV has it the most, there seems to be more pvp and pve and arena viable talents and abilities. And for MM there’s still quite a few- even if admitedly probably clunky. And for BM?
All we get is TBW and intimidate- and ofc pet skills. Ofc we have traps and shots too and etc but as I said going just by talents alone..
This doesn’t make it right, just because oh BM is still loved even for shiny pet, it’s fine- no it’s not :/
This is like what GC or what GC was told to say to the druids. If I remember right he flat out told balance druids to roll resto as that was their pvp specc.
I mean good god I’ve not seen them treat warlocks this way- or have they? :/ Hunters are pure dps, they shouldn’t be saying oh you can’t dps in that specc that you love, you’ve gotta respecc. And don’t you love we cheaped out and a talent that would have really helped out hybrids now helps out you too!?
I mean I can understand a hybrid, having something like this. Especially if you can do caster and melee dps, or if you can heal, dps or tank. Or dps or heal or dps and tank.
Rikaku: eh I guess I can try and give it another go then. Just as I said is a bit off putting when everyone yells out their dps and all that.
also, for my MM tree Kaina i have an 18/53/0 build, which was better (raised my dps about 1k) from my previous MM spec, which was still giving good numbers, which was 2/62/7, and i personally will use whatever of my raid pets i feel like when i raid, granted i only have a wolf and cat (WS, Bone-spider and Gond. being my other three) but i like cats alot better then wolves, although im thinking about getting a wasp for the extra ArP.
And for anyone who isn’t sure, I consider myself a casual raider, but with school being a time waster, i haven’t gotten to raid in a while, and i am in 200/213/226 gear, not the highend stuff, even though my guild is in that content.
Ty for the information Gim :) I was too lazy to go armory him :3
Yeah, I too prefer Cats to wolves, but to boost my DPS, I kinda HAVE to use a wolf for “Furious Howl”. It doesn’t increase my DPS by a lot, but it still increase it. I never use my cats anymore… that makes me sad because I love my cats and I’d also love to use my Spirit beast for PvE. I just don’t understand why Blizz gives us beautiful Spirit Beasts if we can’t even raid with them…I mean…I would totally raid with Gondria but….Yeah, no. <.< =(
I’m mainly BM and I have tried SV as my secondary spec for a few months…. my dps actually soared in SV, but I could never get the hang of the rotations down to a “T” even when I sort of did. I sometimes end up with a cooldown “dead-zone” after blowing almost everything in terms of offense in one go towards the target and then just auto-shoot as I wait for the cooldowns to finish so I can use my shots again. After a while; I shifted back to MM (which was my only other spec back in the day of vanilla wow for all my other damage because that was the only spec at 60 to what most guilds/raids/etc wanted before)… and while a bit below in SV currently, the dps is almost comparable and I don’t get a cooldown dead-zone the way I do in SV (which may be my fault as I was miserable in that spec in spite of being 2nd and sometimes 1st in the dps meter – it just felt weird to me even after months of getting used to the prescribed standard cookie-cutter rotation some forums advise a SV hunter to use)….. after I switched back to MM as an off-spec, I could tell the difference and that it was much easier to create a rotation where I am almost constantly firing off abilities and there were fewer(sometimes nil) “dead-zones” when it came to cooldowns….it’s a good middle ground.
I used to hate speccing out of BM… especially when I got really good (at least in my opinion) at it from 1-60 (I remember how a lot of us had to spend a ton of gold for respecs every now and then when the guild needed extra damage in a raid before dual spec was implemented – capping at 100 gold per spec change when you do it regularly). That is why every time when they spout off “balancing”… I scratch my head because it made me have to switch to another spec just so I can be group viable when it’s crunch time…. and I think: “Shouldn’t I be doing comparable damage/dps in any spec rather than being pigeonholed again to one or another spec if they’re trying to ‘balance’ us?” If they wanted us to not depend so much on a pet in BM tree of all things… why not simply rework the hunter class and make it into a pure Ranger class that rarely uses pets but is viable as both a ranged fighter and a somewhat decent melee fighter when the target gets too close.
Personally, I just want to be useful as a BM again…
As SV don’t fill with autos, u should be using Steady rowdy, but ur right, it gets kinda boring after that…
as a 2nd, the Ranger idea is something ive wanted as hero class fro a while, it’d be like a mix of a rogue and hunter, only no pets… something, dare i say, that’d be legolas equivalent, b/c he is badass in melle w/ his swords IMO… =D
Or melee rather…
hey Gim…. I use steady shot as well to blow off the wait in SV… problem is; sometimes there are instances where steady shot is useless when you’re running around along with the group on certain bosses (one good example is the dance boss in naxx when you’re doing the dance – I can only get a few shots off per run)… and the rest of your offensive abilities are on cooldown, so you’re left with nothing to use in that instance… I blow steady shot almost always when I hit rapid fire because it shortens the cast time by a lot whenever I get the chance so I can do more than one SS spam…. and only when I can stand still and really unload without worrying about a stray spell directed at me.
As for the Ranger idea…. Sylvanas Windrunner is one – so there are supposedly Rangers in the game. I just wish they were a playable class. If blizzard can’t figure out what to do with us hunters, why not give us Rangers instead and be done with it.
…another thing…. if they’re planning on getting rid of mana for hunters, then a quasi-Ranger the hunter will become if that is the case. If so, why not just redo the hunter to make them full Rangers… it seems that way now with where MM and SV are going in regards to their skill-sets – they rarely rely on pets and their dps do not take a huge nosedive when their pet dies…. and all this talk about them trying to not make BM depend too much on pets also points in this direction. I just wish they’d make up their minds on what a hunter should really be.
Sylvanas is a dark ranger, a ranger who has lost touch of nature through undeath. Instead of nature obeying her command, undeath does. Black Arrow is actually a shot from Sylvanas in Warcraft 3 Frozen Throne, though it was much cooler there. It did shadow damage and if the enemy died while under its effect, they were revived as a skeleton serving Sylvanas.
In PvP, it’s fairly uncommon to see an exotic pet. Not totally rare, but not as frequent as Survival. This is neither boasting nor stretching the truth, but it takes a much, much better geared survival hunter to best me in PvP. I think this has a lot to do with Lock’n'load, and the proc chance from Black Arrow not being very high. ((Oh a side note, this results in some hunters being desperate enough to RUN UP TO ME, like I don’t know what they are doing, to try and trap me))
*Scratches his chin* Ya know, that got me thinking…..how is it right that survival has an ability that allows them to fire off their strongest attack up to three times in a row ((And I know it’s been nerfed quite a bit since inception)) and yet beast master just had their burst damaged turned to poo?
On a side note, I’ll be happy when intellect is gone for us, so I can actually pick a tree to go down as my second, instead of being quasi-forced down marksmen.
ugh, i am NOT looking forward to losing mana, as ive said a billion times already, i don’t like the change and don’t see it needed AT ALL… and if they ever drop pets from hunters i won’t play the class, period, even if they have minimal contributions, i still love em.
I stand corrected Palla. True as Palla said, Sylvanas was once a Ranger (a mashing of Marksman and SV rolled into one that can melee with the best of them)… then she became a Dark Ranger with necrotic tendencies thanks to Arthas in his fit of irrational spite – gotta love megalomaniacs. I remember Black Arrow from frozen throne… wicked spell that was.
i agree with gimlion only reason i love hunter so much is b/c of pet and bm tree, sure i like playin unholy dks, and locks but nothin compares to hunters, if pepts go away then i dont think ill ever play a hunter again
“BM is actually more popular than MM among level 80s”
Yes, and now let’s look at a meaningful statistic, level 80 raiders. Right.
Gim…. I, too, am hoping they never drop pets from the hunter class, just that I wish hunters could do well with AND without them regardless of spec… I only wish they could be more than just an added bonus/accessory that doesn’t gimp us when they’re dead because some sod of a healer thinks its a waste of mana to heal them through a direct hit (which also brings me to point out the rather irritating low health pool our pets have after being streamlined to share a leveled 5/5/5 with cunning pets across the board). I love having pets, I just don’t like being gimped when they’re down in the one spec I “grew” up with.
I don’t see the need of taking our mana away tho. Replacing it with Focus… *shrugs* And…I don’t think they will drop pets from hunters…or I won’t play my hunter anymore! =/ Too many people play hunters…probably all of them would complain if Blizz take their pets away…I know I would! :P The only reason why I love my hunter is because of the pets. I love the fact that “I” can own wild cats, raptors, wolves….and spirit beasts. :) I mean, if Blizz ever take our pets away…
Oh, talking about a new hero class, maybe it’s going to be Rangers… *shrugs* Who knows? Well the only thing I know is Blizz had a lot of problems trying to balance the DKs…and they also said they weren’t ready for another hero class for now… =P
DKs aren’t like hunters anyways…Well…they can have a “pet” but…yeah…
I know some really good unholy DKs and I for one know that a fairly large percentage of them have hunters as their mains…. most from my server were hunters that took to unholy DKs like a duck to water because of the pet ability.
I guess you can call it humor, but when the class designer on one of the world’s most popular MMO’s says things to the affect of players using a certain spec to “play Pokemon” with, I can’t help but think that that’s one of the contributing causes for this game’s generally terrible fanbase.
AMEN, Raze. I was thinking that myself. I was actually kind of insulted that GC even said that. Course, maybe that’s just because I am serious BM, and it isn’t my secondary spec.
“BM is actually more popular than MM among level 80s. BM is also the most popular secondary spec, though maybe it could just be to play Pokemon with Spirit Beasts.”
… I hope GC realizes the irony in “discovering” that their decision to pigeon hole all of the new/glowy/rare tames under just one exotic species has resulted in lots and lots of players treating BM as a vanity spec.
It’s enough that BM *gets* exotic species – the new “must tame” models didn’t all have to be BM only; yeah having spirit strike is sort of neat I guess but honestly I’d have been much, much happier if they’d simply release cool looking/ghostly/sparkly/whatever versions of existing families.
And yes some could belong to pre-existing exotic species (i.e. like maybe overhaul Nuramoc etc), which obviously *would* be BM only, but otherwise I don’t think it needs to be that exclusive – or limited to just one generic ferocity template.
GC: “to play Pokemon with Spirit Beasts.”
Way to go Mr. SmartAss – alienating your paying customers is always a good way!
It’s people like him, the rabid eSport fanatics, that kill a game.
I’m going to get flamed to heck for this,but I’m ready…
For all of you who want to play a “Ranger” class,please go play Final Fantasy XI
Online…they have a ranger class,with no pet…and you know what?…They are not the “leet” class you all think they are.I know,I tried to level a ranger.Didn’t get very far with it,I’ll admit,but…no…no…a thousand times “no”,to a ranger class in WoW. In fact,I will state right here,right now,if Blizz does make a ranger class,Hero or not,I will NEVER roll one. I haven’t rolled a Dark Knight(too Palladin-ish for my tastes) and I love my pets too much. (Even though Skoll mocks me,I will have him one day..or Loque…)
First of all,Rangers(in FFXI) need special arrows to fully utilize their ability’s. How do they get them?..By crafting them themselves. And if you’ve never crafted in FFXI,then you’ve never been to hell,have you? Trust me,it’s brutal…and if you fail at “synthing” your arrows(or bullets),you lose your mats.
So all of that farming you did (also brutal..worse drop rates than WoW’s),you now get to do again…on the chance it may fail…again.
Secondly,Rangers were not “Legolas” with great melee skills. Sorry to tell you,but we were just as bad as Hunters at close range..AND we had no “freeze trap”, no “wing clip” or any other means to get back to range…unless there was a warrior who could “provoke” the mob off of us. Otherwise,same result as WoW..dead player.
I was born a BM hunter almost three years ago,and I’ll be a BM hunter until Blizzard shuts down the servers. I haven’t re-specced once,and I won’t start now.
I have nothing but the utmost respect for all hunters,MM,SV and all the dual-specced hunters as well,but I will roll with the punches and stay BM. Not for the “lolexotic pets”…but because that’s just who I am.
Kitairra
P.S. Ghostcrawler can bite me.
BM = god mode when it comes to questing. Properly spec’ed and glyphed and sporting a tenacity pet, it’s a 3 man group in one character.
Add the shiny spirit beast models to that and there are very good reasons to have a BM spec that have nothing to do with end-game raiding or PvP.
Actually Nim, ferocity pets are a bit more useful for group quests. Properly talented ((Heart of the phoenix, lick your wounds)) means you can, almost literally, go through three of your pet before mend petting. With mend pet, it takes forever for your pet to die and stay dead. When you HotP, feign off to put the aggro back on your pet. You do have to play your aggro a bit closer to the hilt that way, but things also die that much faster.
I’m not….disagreeing with you, Nimizar. I think the problem with me is that a large part of BM at endgame is a ‘show off’ spec. “Oooo, look at my spirit beast! Isn’t he pretty!” and that’s it for end game. And Ghostcrawler condoning that makes it that much worse.
Nah, if you’re used to the way GC writes, that’s probably not what he meant. He was almost certainly being sarcastic, saying that no, most people that are BM at level 80 *aren’t* there to play Pokemon with spirit beasts, but are instead BM for other reasons (simplicity of rotation, great soloing spec, etc). People that say BM is only about spirit beasts are projecting their own feelings on to other players (I’m doing something similar in saying that BM is a great spec because of its soloing power, since that is the reason I personally got a BM dual spec as quickly as I could after switching to SV for my main spec).
As far as the tenacity comment goes, I was actually mostly talking about non-group quests (where thunderstomp = brilliant), but I must admit I hadn’t thought of using a Ferocity pet when taking on the single-target elites.
Personally, my Blood Elf Hunter only has a BM spec for soloing, having fancy pets, and the 10% moount speed buff on Pathfinding. I’ve learned to my great regret that no matter what I do with my BM PVE build that it just sucks compared to all the cookie-cutter Survival Hunters out there with similar gear, and have just broken down and respecced my PVE spec to a cookie-cutter survival PVE build with a Wolf Pet.
So now I’m just another Explosive Shot/Wolf Survival Hunter for PVE/Raiding, but what the hell, it works. I hope Blizzard does something about BM Hunters for PVE/Raiding. Right now, regardless of how popular BM is, it’s not because BM is effective for grouping.
If you remember, Nimizar, this is the same guy who said that Beastmaster ought to be lower because it was ‘easier’, and they wanted to reward a more complicated play style. I realize he was probably just being sarcastic, but for some reason that irked me all the same. Like I said though, it probably just struck me wrong because BM is my ONLY spec.
However, I have to admit that I don’t want BM to be the flavor of the month spec again. I want it to be more competitive in DPS then it is now, and maybe a bit more interesting, but I’ll pass on having every min/maxer and moron in the world in my preferred spec.
Kitairra: no flame here, but FFXI Rangers are different from Warcraft lore (two different games and lore do not a cookie-cutter class make) so you wouldn’t be able to compare the two if blizzard ever does come out of with another class. If what I heard that they are planning to remove mana from the Hunter class is true, then they are getting close to being a Ranger as any could guess. Although, from what I understand; Rangers are somewhat magical that are in touch with nature (kinda like a druid in some fashion) – therefore, the use of mana is mandatory.
I’ve been silent for a long while – simply following the posts – it still looks like they are still not sure what to do to the class we all love. Getting rid of mana is “iffy” for me, that means they would have to retool everything from how much “focus” or whatnot an ability will cost.
About BM popularity… as much as I agree with one sentiment in regards to Pokemon in terms of pet collecting, I dislike the connotations about the hunter in that regard even if it was a sarcastic jest – or a jest, pure and simple (one that I really wish was not similar, because I hate the comparison since in Pokemon the pets do all the fighting and the trainers are mostly useless – almost exactly what the bm hunter is once the pet dies since everything in that tree are geared for pets). What I want to know is where is their data that says BM is popular in regards to groupings? In raids?
And as a “Secondary Spec”? A healthy majority, if not all, hunters start off as BM primarily for leveling purposes, how can that be a secondary spec? I’ll just have to wait and see what happens after the PTR closes and roll with the punches (if there are any) when the new patch goes live.
Actually, I would say at the time that GC meant it when he said that the DPS potential of BM should be lower so long as the rotation is easier. However, there are a couple of nuances there that are important:
1. Well-played BM should out-damage poorly played MM and SV (and that’s largely true – if you clip Explosive on L&L proc or refresh Serpent too often or use Steady too much, or a whole host of other mistakes, you can certainly gut your SV DPS. I’ve never tried MM so I don’t know what the rotation is like, but I believe it is closer to the SV rotation than the BM one).
2. “Lower” in this context likely still means they would like the spec to be above the hybrids when played well.
3. If they change up the BM rotation to make it more complex, the DPS potential will likely go up as well.
But that’s part of the thing, Nim, our rotation is easier mainly due to a lack of shots. We don’t have chimera, black arrow, or explosive shot. Thus our rotations are simpler not by our choice, but by tree design. Honestly, how is that fair? That our DPS rotation is limited by the trees that they designed? I think it’s total crap that our DPS is less because of that. I don’t think I should have to play my ass off just to beat mediocre MM or SV hunters, and have no way of beating an equally skilled and geared one.
I’m not necessarily arguing with you, Nimizar. I think part of it is unfair because so much of our damage is just automated. I honestly don’t want to change that, I like that my pet, but I do think they should find a way to get BM more into it. The original kill command and intimidation are good places to start, I think. Abilities for the pets that do ‘on next attack’ damage or ‘instant attack’ damage based on pet stats and such. Damage the hunter initiates, but the the pet actually does. That would require more effort on the hunters part. I think we could use another shot as well, but something themed around our pets. Something that boosts their damage, or armor, or heals them or some such. Something to get us back into it.
But in the mean time having our damage be at the bottom of the three trees due to their own design is just ridiculous.
Agreed, out of all the rotations a hunter has in any spec, BM is the easiest since most of the shots being utilized are base shots/abilities with no special requirements/enhancements. Remove the other special abilities from MM and SV and you will see an almost baseline dps output from all three trees in terms of basic shot output. The major factor of varying dps output are the special shots the other trees have that BM doesn’t. What picks up the slack are our pets.
I’m a BM hunter, always have and always will, and I agree that it’s crazy that they make people choose one or two specs out of three if they want to deal damage in a pure dps class. I love my Skoll, why not make it so it actually means something? I mean I wouldn’t call it a spec advantage to get whispers every half hour asking me where I got him. They definitely have to set it up in the next expansion so that each spec is comparable in dps but in different ways. While a MM might output his dps in pure ranged shots, a BM gets a good chunk of his DPS out of his pet. And SV can be back to it always was — a joke unless you needed some great CC. Well, I mean, they could lay some good traps and slows but it really wasn’t about dps. They could still give them good dps output, but itd be more about rotations of their wyvern stings and stuff.
I think a real part of the problem with BM is the beast mastery talent itself. Believe me when I say that I know what it does for character customization as far as pets go, and does allow for the equivalent of another 20 pet levels worth of talent points, it still falls short of most other 51 pointers, and even fairly short of the other two trees. If it conveyed another bonus, if the exotics were more beefy, if they had special skills that were especially dangerous, so on and so fourth it would make it feel more worth while.
Iamtyler, I don’t want SV to go back to being useless. But I do think it’s weird for a tree named ‘survival’ to be highest in DPS. If anything, Marksmen should edge out the other two trees for damage, though preferably not by a whole lot.
We don’t need SV to be a joke… just make it so it’s more or less where it’s supposed to be: Survival. Before, SV was all about CC and staying alive longer and dancing around the enemy while trying to take them down… which is why some of the talents enhanced traps to a good degree. ….and MM was supposed to be all about pure damage since it dealt with shot and sting enhancement, the real long range damage dealing stuff. BM was and still is (somewhat) a grey mixture of SV and MM in terms of being able to survive longer and doing damage via pet and shots as dps. I was surprised when SV edged out MM in terms of damage when it first happened, explosive shot and black arrow should have been in MM due to all the long range damage abilities (kinda like keeping it to a theme) and SV should have had more CC and indirect damage shots/abilities to help keep focus on tanks and general mob management/takedowns to aid the group in staying alive — that includes a some decent melee dps since some traps you have to set have to be real close to the target. That was what should have been done because SV was supposed to be situational in terms of placement – where you are – in relation to target when you’re throwing down traps and generally dancing around targets to help bring them down. I didn’t get why SV had to have really insane dps when the other half of the time in the group, my job (other than burning the targets down when I can stand still and just unload every shot towards them) was to lay down some traps to deal damage or help a group member (usually a healer) by freezing whatever is close enough to them to stop killing them while they try to heal the party.
Playing SV to me is more then just burning down a boss Granted pvp is different!!
When I do raid i usually maintain cc around the other mainly healers and cloth cc players..cause in the guild i am in it seems to work to keep those classes safe for the most part with the improved trap spec the scattershot and one of my faves the wyvern sting cause it puts them to sleep but gotta make sure to pop them before they enter combat but when the others have the bosws down they they tell me to burn the boss usually when the tank gives the ok so i dont take his aggro.. Pvp i choose my shots carefully and always put the wyvern to good use is a underated shot but when you see the enemies healer running around never hurts to pop him!! cant heal when snoozing and put out some sweet damage after he wakes but you can pop him again before he heals himself,,but I always try to use ES and KS for last and close together.. Not trying to tell ya how to play Rowdy or any others this is just how it works for me when i go Survival
Grrr typos the above bows is boss lol sorry all caffiene is needed! lol
No offense taken Snow, that’s exactly how SV should be played rather than how some players play SV that I’ve partnered with. Some SV I’ve been in with in the group (especially those new to the spec) simply forget that and just shoot shoot shoot… and crow that they got 1st in dps until an arms warrior or a mage or demo lock blows them out of the water… gah. Point is, SV was all about support, and not straight up end-zone damage… that was what MM was for, that was how the tree was built for.
SV *isn’t* highest DPS – from a maximum possible numbers point of view, MM is about 500 dps ahead of SV, then BM is another 500 DPS behind that. The differences are somewhat gear dependent though – MM scales best, BM scales worst, so just after dinging 80 the differences are much less dramatic (and I believe SV edges out MM for best DPS for a while). The personal numbers aren’t the whole story though – depending on the structure of the raid (especially in 10-mans), the trade-offs between bringing Replenishment, 10% AP, 3% damage and possibly a major or minor armour debuff (if necessary) can affect overall raid damage more than the spec choice affects the hunters own damage (particularly if they have difficulty getting effective damage out of the more complex MM or SV rotations).
@Palla: a lot of the comments you’re making about BM there actually echo things I have heard from GC on the forums (such as the question about making KC in deep BM as interesting as Lock & Load is to SV). In a way, BM is in a similar situation to the Frost tree for mages – it’s a spec that is very popular for its own reasons, but high end raiding isn’t one of those reasons (except when you decide to bring the major armour debuff to a 10 man group that doesn’t have a prot warrior but does have a bunch of physical DPS). GC has also pointed out the difficulties of having so much damage tied up in the pet (a furry/scaly/whatever DoT as it is sometimes described) – they don’t really want to slant BM damage any further towards the pet than it already is, but whenever they shift that balance further towards the hunter, they get inevitable complaints from players saying “but BM is meant to be about the pet!”.
To be honest, I expect the fears of those thinking that with hunter focus coming in Wrath we shouldn’t be expecting too much in the way of major changes in 3.3 are probably justified. We may see a few adjustments and tweaks to try to bring BM PvE DPS up a bit closer to SV (the armour pen nerf should already be bringing MM down a bit), but significant ability changes seem unlikely.
@Rowdy: Ultimately, the role of a DPS class/spec in a raid is to DPS. You either have to bring that DPS personally, provide it through raid buffs, or provide it through improved threat for the tanks. When Blizzard de-emphasised the latter two by increasing tank threat and allowing multiple classes to bring the various raid buffs (with varying degrees of sacrifice of personal DPS), they made a conscious decision to try to make DPS potential as even as they could across the different specs in the pure DPS classes. The primary source of variance is that the specs with simple PvE rotations tend to have lower sustained PvE DPS.