More on Bestial Wrath Changes

Ghostcrawler posted more today on the upcoming changes to Bestial Wrath and The Beast Within that are currently on the PTR.

Given the depth of discussion that the previous post has already engendered, I wanted to give these notes their own post so they have plenty of visibility.

First, a quick recap. Yesterday MMO Champion reported that:

  • The Beast Within now lasts 10 sec (Down from 18 sec) but now also increases all damage you deal by 10% at all time.
  • Bestial Wrath now lasts 10 sec. (Down from 18 sec)

Hunters quickly began discussing this change on Blizzard’s Damage Dealing forum, and Ghostcrawler popped in to respond:

I love data-mined patch note day.

It should be no surprise to anyone who has been on these boards for long that we’re trying to chill out abilities that convey offensive and defensive bonuses with the same button press. At the same time, BM damage was a little low and too dependent on the pet. With this change, hopefully, Bestial Wrath becomes more of a defensive ability while taking Beast Within will boost hunter (and just the hunter) damage at all times.

I call it more of a defensive cooldown because it now breaks all CC like a PvP trinket.

Since then there has been a metric tonne more discussion, and Ghostcrawler posted several additional comments in the same thread. First, he described the actual changes to the talents:

Since the changes seem to be causing confusion, here is the new tooltip.

“Send your pet into a rage causing 50% additional damage for 10 sec (down from 18). While enraged, the beast does not feel pity or remorse or fear and it cannot be stopped unless killed.”

The tooltip doesn’t say this, but it now breaks all forms of CC that a PvP trinket would break (including Cyclone, Sap, etc.).

“Increases all damage you deal by 10% and while your pet is under the effects of Bestial Wrath, you also go into a rage causing 10% additional damage and reducing mana costs of all spells by 20% for 10 sec (down from 18). While enraged, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you cannot be stopped unless killed.”

So the changes are:

Duration lowered.
Passive hunter damage buff added.
Now breaks all forms of CC (whatever a PvP trinket breaks, including Sap and Cyclone).

Later, he added this note about mana:

It wasn’t our intent to push BM hunters into Viper more often with this change so we are discussing buffing the mana cost portion of the talent from 20% to perhaps as high as 50%.

Now I know this change is a contentious one, which is a big reason I am posting about it again instead of just updating the previous post. But please do remember to be respectful of other hunters in your comments. You can attack their arguments, but please do not attack each other.

117 thoughts on “More on Bestial Wrath Changes

  1. Palladiamors

    Here is the thing though, Nanotrev, and I think it is an important distinction. Melee classes have to get into melee range to use their abilities, however most melee feature some way, form, or fashion to allow them to get into range. Casters are more comfortable from a distance, but ALL casters have some defensive ability to help them in melee, to allow them to regain distance, or both. They can also deal their damage just fine from melee, and in fact some caster classes exhibit the ability to deal certain other forms of damage in melee range. Hunters do not feature a REAL defensive ability in melee range ((Deterrence is a joke, plain and simple)) and REQUIRE at least six yards between hunter and target to deal the bulk of their damage. On the flip side, hunters gain traps in melee, however traps are both mostly ineffectual and easy to avoid. Concussive, wing clip, and disengage are our only really effective defensive abilities, and disengage has to be the most finicky defensive maneuver I have ever had the head ache of using.

    What this means is that it is nearly 100% necessary for a hunter to be able to kite in PvP. And even then, at eighty there are so many counters to a kiting hunter that it isn’t even funny. Basically, hunters are the only class that A: Requires an entirely different playstyle from PvE to PvP and B:has to rely on a play style that literally cuts their damage just to be able to stay alive a little longer. Warlocks can still send in their demon and just DoT the crap out of everything ((Personal experience speaking)) and while kiting does help, I have never found it absolutely necessary. IN fact there are times when trying to kite as a warlock is a very bad idea, thanks to the some what slow nature of DoTs. However warlocks also have more defensive mechanisms to use, from death coil and fear to health stones.

    Obviously I am being a little unfair. There are some differences for most classes between PvE and PvP, but for most it’s something as simple as adding a snare, or learning to silence at the right time. For hunters, it’s literally learning how to fire at a target while running away, and finding the best possible way to stay out of melee range. One of the greatest abilities as far as kiting goes is being able to jump, turn in mid-jump, fire off a shot, and then turn and keep running in the same direction without breaking stride.

    *Takes a deep breath* What I am saying is that it’s already complicated enough to play a hunter in PvP. I am having a really hard time seeing how Focus is going to help us any. My big fear is that our defensive abilities are going to cost focus, and we are going to have to worry about not having the focus we need to disengage at the right time or what have you. But…..we shall see, I suppose.

  2. Palladiamors

    OH! My other point! I think it’s a load of crap that you pretty much HAVE to be good at kiting in order to PvP effectively, when no other class has a restriction like that! It just goes back to not being able to do most of our damage under the five yard line!

    Knew I was aiming for something else there.

  3. Rikaku

    Gimlion:
    Actually I don’t like the focus change either as there is alot of other crap Blizz should be focusing on for Hunters. However, I will not say it’s going to suck. We don’t know how it’ll work for one. We only know “Haste will affect it”. That’s all we sort of know about it. And, random fact, Hunters in WoW’s original beta used Focus (from what I’ve understood from beta-players of WoW). So this concept isn’t new.

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  5. Nanotrev

    -Earlier post
    “Exactly, but it still brings up a good question. While we’re busy regenerating our focus, what kind of CC from us or our pets would be the most favorable for us while retaining balance so that our spec doesn’t become overpowered? While it may be required I’d hate to waste focus on Concussive shot and have to continue reapplying it. A stun or slowing ability would be much more favorable, along with keeping Intimidation at the cost of 0 focus being that it comes from our pet anyways. It’s just a command from the hunter. I’d like to stress that improved stuns and root durations from Beast Mastery pet would be a very nice thing to have along with possibly having a short daze effect being worked into Arcane as well.”

    I do realize it’s required that we need range to be any good. That’s why I was stressing that we needed our pets to be able to stun or root more often or have longer durations of their current stuns and/or roots.

  6. Elenion

    “I really REALLY don’t want to be Focus based, we are NOT BROKEN, repeat NOT BROKEN using mana/cooldowns and it seems to work JUST FINE!!! the fact that they are now doing a switch like this after several years of mana working great makes me more then a little steamed, it’ll be like relearning the feel of a Hunter, which i really don’t want to do, so in my mind it is plain and utterly stupid. my 2 cents worth”

    @Gimlion,
    Unfortunately, you are sadly blinded by your personal perspective so that you are not able to see a bigger picture here.

    Yes mana worked fairly decently at least until TBC, but from then on there were many clear signs that proved flaws inherent for hunters with mana (and int from gear).

    1. In order to have mana as our resource mechanic, we require int in our gear, which ultimately spreads out item budget and this chips off from other area. Many of you seen this happening in Sunwell gear as well as PvP gear.

    2. After disallowing us to FD+drink in combat they introduced Aspect of the Viper. This has always been changing and always seemed to be just band-aiding the issue. No one liked it, but it was best what Blizzard devs could think of at the moment which is closest to any problems regarding mana regen issues.

    3. Having mana as a resource system pushes us to be balanced similar to casters, cooldown is a factor in balancing main set of damage abilities because we could spam those other wise but unlike other casters hunters do small chunks of damage justified by auto shots and instant shots. Unfortunately they scale pitifully compare to those of casters, in another words casters may have less instant cast but their abilities are more bang for a buck.

  7. Elenion

    One more to the list.

    4. Buttons – Let me elaborate how this is related to mana system.
    As I stated in #3, because can spam or use abilities in succession to certain extent otherwise limited by cooldown we are able to chain our numerous but LACKLUSTER CC/snare abilities if we choose to do so.

    Because our class is balanced similar to casters, managed by cooldown and mana as resource they gave us many but weak CC/snare to be used in combination at cost of many GCD, because we can chain them if we choose to do so as long as they are not in CD or OOM. Thus we get all these neat skills which sound dandy at first but you eventually come to manage 2-3 types of each version you got to choose when to use, and of course bind them all other wise not being able bring out full potential.

    Summary: many weak abilities to spam/watch cd but nothing interesting or feel “good” about using them.

  8. Gimlion

    I am almost never binded to gear with Intel on it, i get a lil extra mana from it, and a few points of AP, but if there is leather gear that is better for me then my Intel baring item, i will roll/bid/ what have you for it unless there is a rogue/kitty in the party, plain and simple… so i do not see it as a binding/impairing atribute

  9. Elenion

    Gimlion, I think you are still bit off from the “perspective” you should be on to look at why devs do what they do, in this case focus instead of mana.

    Sure, you are entitled to take leather if you see it as better upgrade but think this way for a second. First of all, back before WOTLK, Sunwell content, they didn’t have int -> AP talent for hunters and shamans. Because all hunters get out of int was just a larger mana pool, it chipped off from other DPS stats. Thus, many hunters sported rogue gear because it’s simply better.

    Now you say what is the problem here right? From dev/designer perspective when certain gear designed to be useful for certain class is no longer desirable and compete for other ones designed to be used mainly by other set of classes, it raises red flag.

    There was actually a prelude to this problem with ret pally gear. Their old ret gears were so spread out in stats and how their talent/skills worked out, it was not working at all and that’s why you saw a big overhaul.

  10. Snowtiger

    @ palla I agree with ya totally
    I have been playing since 2005 myself and have seen so many changes and nerfs to hunter i just sit back and shake my head!!
    1.) they need to leave TBW and BW alone period end of story!!
    2.) At one time and i believe the older players my have had seen it but at one time I was doing more damge with arcane then aim shot would ever do then NERF !!!
    3.) scattershot and silent shot needs to be longer!! dazing a warrior that has just rend and hamstringed you gives you no time to run away But what about disengaged gives ya the distance but does not take away the movement imparing affect and hence the new charge and warrior in face yet again… When traps actually worked before most came immune to them they where great!! now not so great
    what am I getting at I also Have a Paladin and with my paladin i can stun a hunter
    mutli times and stomp his pet and i know this from both sides doing it and having it done to me Ret pally’s have 2 stuns of course hammer and the least know of the 2 repentance!!
    Example I can stun the hunter with hammer and he could use his trinket and get out but then hit him with repentance and as long as no one takes him out i can wail on the beast and let hammers cool down finish and then stun him again if need or just wail on the hunter!! works on locks to only deadlier because of there Demon pets!!
    and I believe that all Hunter specs need a get away move and sorry but nerfing TBW and the BW is totally not the way for blizz to do it

  11. Snowtiger

    Sorry for Double but seriously look at the length of time for Fear and polymorph
    and pally stuns and druids entanglement and we get a very short time with BW and scattershot and silent shots please needs more time but hey warlocks now get Teleport and mages blink and ice block granted they are squishies but sure dont hit like one

  12. Palladiamors

    Something else they absolutely need to nerf in PvP is crippling poison. I fail to see how it is fair that most slows are around the 50% mark, yet crippling is 70% and reapplied constantly.

  13. Nimizar

    Some class changes are majorly for the better though. As much fun as it was to be topping meters in TBC with Steady Shot spam it was a seriously *dumb* situation for the class to be in. Unlinking auto shot so Steady couldn’t interrupt it, and then nerfing steady so that it was a filler shot rather than hands down our highest damage-per-mana shot made it possible for there to actually be interesting hunter rotations.

    That kind of thing is why I always laugh when people try to claim that hunters never get any love from the devs though… (pet talent trees, anyone?)

    Personally, I’m hopeful that when focus goes we’ll see Aspects disappear as well. Hunters have too many different class mechanics (shots, pet, stings, traps, aspects, melee attacks, pet-linked abilities like Master’s Call and BW, miscellaneous abilities like Disengage and Deterrence). Something needs to give and with one of our current major aspects rendered null and void by the switch to focus, they’re the most obvious candidate for culling.

  14. Nimizar

    Started skimming some of the comments on the linked WHU site… “We will be shooting steady more often, so it will be a significant loss of DPS”.

    /rolleyes

    I mean, it’s not like Blizzard are completely overhauling the itemisation, talent trees and ability scaling for the whole frakking game and will have to rebalance everything from scratch… oh, wait, yeah it is.

    Ah well, at least one of their admins chimed in to say pretty much the same thing. The hunter mana->focus change is almost trivial compared to the impact of the removal of ability ranks, the restructure of nearly all gear stat allocations (except DPS plate) and the changes to the talent trees due to the mastery system.

  15. Palladiamors

    That’s something that kind of worries me, actually. They are changing a HUGE chunk of WoW on us. Will it still be as fun afterwards? I’m already feeling burned, so this will either make me stay a bit longer, or totally break me of WoW.

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