More on Bestial Wrath Changes

Ghostcrawler posted more today on the upcoming changes to Bestial Wrath and The Beast Within that are currently on the PTR.

Given the depth of discussion that the previous post has already engendered, I wanted to give these notes their own post so they have plenty of visibility.

First, a quick recap. Yesterday MMO Champion reported that:

  • The Beast Within now lasts 10 sec (Down from 18 sec) but now also increases all damage you deal by 10% at all time.
  • Bestial Wrath now lasts 10 sec. (Down from 18 sec)

Hunters quickly began discussing this change on Blizzard’s Damage Dealing forum, and Ghostcrawler popped in to respond:

I love data-mined patch note day.

It should be no surprise to anyone who has been on these boards for long that we’re trying to chill out abilities that convey offensive and defensive bonuses with the same button press. At the same time, BM damage was a little low and too dependent on the pet. With this change, hopefully, Bestial Wrath becomes more of a defensive ability while taking Beast Within will boost hunter (and just the hunter) damage at all times.

I call it more of a defensive cooldown because it now breaks all CC like a PvP trinket.

Since then there has been a metric tonne more discussion, and Ghostcrawler posted several additional comments in the same thread. First, he described the actual changes to the talents:

Since the changes seem to be causing confusion, here is the new tooltip.

“Send your pet into a rage causing 50% additional damage for 10 sec (down from 18). While enraged, the beast does not feel pity or remorse or fear and it cannot be stopped unless killed.”

The tooltip doesn’t say this, but it now breaks all forms of CC that a PvP trinket would break (including Cyclone, Sap, etc.).

“Increases all damage you deal by 10% and while your pet is under the effects of Bestial Wrath, you also go into a rage causing 10% additional damage and reducing mana costs of all spells by 20% for 10 sec (down from 18). While enraged, you do not feel pity or remorse or fear and you cannot be stopped unless killed.”

So the changes are:

Duration lowered.
Passive hunter damage buff added.
Now breaks all forms of CC (whatever a PvP trinket breaks, including Sap and Cyclone).

Later, he added this note about mana:

It wasn’t our intent to push BM hunters into Viper more often with this change so we are discussing buffing the mana cost portion of the talent from 20% to perhaps as high as 50%.

Now I know this change is a contentious one, which is a big reason I am posting about it again instead of just updating the previous post. But please do remember to be respectful of other hunters in your comments. You can attack their arguments, but please do not attack each other.

117 thoughts on “More on Bestial Wrath Changes

  1. Nanotrev

    I really don’t think that would solve our problem, putting even more reliance on the pet. Ghostcrawler himself said he didn’t want us to be too dependent on our pets despite being the Beast Mastery tree. If our pet dies everything goes down the tubes, and I can also see his point about making our pets too hard to kill as a bad thing. If they were indeed buffed in damage and so hard to kill that the opposing class would have no choice put to focus on us we’d have little we’d need to do but run and add an additional shot as our pet did most of the damage. I myself can see that as being ridiculously easy in PvP without comparing it to other classes. I can see the QQ that would follow. We really would be reduced to winning with just a couple of button presses and adequate time since our pets have quite a bit of CC if you choose the right ones as Beast Mastery. There really wouldn’t be much effort on our part if our pet was buffed so much it was literally another player, and we became the pet they would have to kill to get it out of the way.

  2. Nanotrev

    Excuse the double post, but I’ve also thought of something else. It was brought up that if our pet was to do more damage it would have to be easier to kill. This was reinforced by Ghostcrawler as well, as he could see the consequences if our pet were too hard to kill and did too much of our damage. I think the balance would be near-perfect if Arcane shot became our signature shot as BM. Our burst would be back, let alone we’d be getting some more additional burst damage we’d been previously missing out on. Our ability, Bestial Wrath could then be used as a defensive ability as Ghostcrawler intends to make it.

    This is the forum.
    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19820324171&postId=198185217718&sid=1#39

  3. Gelannerai

    I sure would like Arcane Shot to do at the very least as much damage as ONE TICK OF EXPLOSIVE SHOT. I will say they need to rename it though. Since we’re not going to be using mana for much longer, being able to charge an arrow/bullet with arcane magic doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.

  4. Bulletdance

    This is off topic so I apologize, but I figured if anyone would know this it’d be you guys. I noticed some cat pets seem bigger than others. I saw some that were huge and awesome. Did I just never know how big cats can get at 80 or are there special ones that grow larger than others?

  5. Gimlion

    Bullet, there are some cats, as you might know, that are larger than others, the Best case of this is the case of Sabers to Reg cats, with the latter being smaller… but all pets get bigger as you level, so if you saw a 75 cat compared to an 80 cat of the same skin the 80 would be bigger. I’m not quite sure on the sizes of lynx cats are, but the Lions are the same ar reg cats so this is also the case for them

  6. Palladiamors

    Let me start off by saying that while I don’t think beast masters need a new shot per se, we do need a new attack. Either a shot fired by the hunter, or a button in the vein of intimidation that we hit ourselves to make our pet do damage. In the extreme, a talent that provides a new attack for every pet tree type, though I am almost loathe to add another auto cast ability.

    And now for an update from the PvP front. I did multiple BGs last night, and two Wintergrasps just to test the water for hunters in PvP, and it actually wasn’t as bad as I was expecting. My damage was a bit off in my projection, but that was under the line, and not over it. I was some what surprised to see my beastial wrathed spirit beast criticaling for over 1,500 on plate with regular attacks. Spirit strike still needs help, but what are you gonna do? Anyway, on to my point. My pet did not die that much last night. From the straight out battles in AB or the massive turtles in AV, to eating flag runners in Warsong or Eye of the storm. Strand of the ancients she caught a bit more attention from eating war machines, same with Isle of Conquest. But overall, most people couldn’t keep up with her self healing and mend pet, which I don’t remember happening before. Raid buffed it was even worse, since she had around 23,000 hit points, and was usually healed up next to full before the horde could burst her down again. Overall the only things that really gave me any problems ((Massive gear differences aside)) were paladins and well played death knights. Notice I did not say well played paladins, since most of the ones who did manage to beat me only did so through the use of lay on hands and divine shield. Though I do have to, painfully, admit that I caught a few nasty lavaburst criticals in the face.

    On the whole, I am still doing just fine in PvP, even with the new rank of gear out. That eight seconds won’t maim me, like so many people are crying, but it will definitely hurt more then it’s two buffs will help.

  7. Nanotrev

    Makes me a little bummed more people aren’t posting on my thread. It was pretty good at first but I guess I have nothing close to the shock value the OP had in the “Beastial Wrath Nerf” thread that got Ghostcrawler to post in it thus the many more replies of other posters.

  8. Saranette

    I’ve been respecing and testing to find a setup that I could fit into stamina/hunter vs wild talenting. I actually, for the first time went deep into BM ever. I’d say the folks here would be proud but it’s juuuust hybrid enough. You’ll gasp as I don’t even bother with the last 3 points in the BM tree and pull away from crit enhancing abilities for the hunter in favor of cc, damage reduction and boosting the pet. (It’s nice to have hawk eye back…)

    I miss my old Sapphire Hive Drone very much. But the Hive Wasp one will do. It’s pretty awesome sending a very pissed off drake-sized hornet with about 28-30k hp down someone’s throat – was seeing many 1-2k crits on regular attacks even! I’m sure it’s supposed to be far higher with proper gems/spec, but considering I only ever saw my wolf crit for 1k once in a blue moon on a 25-man raid and all the procs lined up juuust right, I was pretty shocked.

    It took like 4 tweaks before I found my stride. Unfortunately, I’m not finding it suited for larger-scale battles at all, but that could be I don’t have enough practice with it yet (and it’s kinda hard to sneak and stalk with a huge neon sign for a buddy, enormous nametag and all!)

    It’s funny, the past few years I’ve played hunter, and I never BW until now. It’s just sad that I see how fun it can be, it gets tweaked up. I can’t help but think all the Big Red folks out there have to be fuming. Hell, I’m still not a fan of the Tree in general and I’m angry about the change because though Blizzard denies it, the MLG tourney was most likely a big influence on the decision to change the skill.

  9. Alex

    From a completely PvE perspective (as I’ve never really PvP’ed a day in my life), I believe that if Blizzard wants to make BM a worthwhile spec in any regards, they will not only have to buff the player, but also improve the pet’s blasted ability to stay alive. It doesn’t matter if you buff Bestial Wrath so that you get 10% more damage if your pet is dead most of the time! Sure, they’re okay against certain AoE attacks with Avoidance, but I’m tired of my pet getting blasted half to hell with Sarth’s Fire Walls, or one accidentally standing in a hockey puck and getting itself killed.

    Trying to improve BM by removing some reliance on the pet is just ludicrous. It’s “Beast Mastery” for a reason! Want to make us less reliant on the pet? Make sure we don’t have to constantly watch the pet to make sure it doesn’t die. IMO.

  10. Palladiamors

    So they removed the hammer of the righteous nerf from protection paladins, making it back into holy damage…..and no change to beastial wrath. Needless to say, I am a bit angry.

  11. Nanotrev

    Indeed, the Beast Mastery spec is about the pet, but I think it’s reliance on the pet is as far as it is going to get right now. If they have to CC it they might as well kill the pet if it’s so much of a threat that they have to worry about it that much, and without buffing the hunter we would be next to useless once that happened. If you buffed the Arcane shot the pet would be a real threat indeed in that the hunter would be a bigger priority yet they still have our pet hitting them as they try and catch us. We would just be the of equal threat since killing the pet alone would no longer make us completely useless not to mention focusing on the pet would be very detrimental. Our damage coming from us would make the more time they spent on the pet more time we have to DPS their health down thus reducing their chance of succeeding in killing us if they wanted to kill our pet in an effort to handicap the hunter. That would be hunter-pet synergy, having the hunter and the pet work together instead of having the pet be of more importance than the hunter. The class as a whole includes all three specs. We are hunters. We just rely on our pets a little more than the other two specs whereas SV and MM hunters still have quite a bit of DPS left if their pet died. With a change like a buff to Arcane shot we would still have quite a bit more damage invested in the pet, more so than SV and MM to retain being unique as Beast Mastery while not wagering everything we have on the pet.

  12. Nanotrev

    That was a response I used in one of the threads. Minus the bit about freezing trap, I believe it fits well with people saying it needs to be more about the pet. I can see increasing stuns/roots used by BM pets but overall I think that’s one of the only places you can put improvement for the pets in. Already, they’re on a blade’s edge of being OP or too frail so it’s simply best to leave them the way they are. The pets are pretty good now as is with stuns possibly being desirable as mentioned earlier. Hunter-pet synergy would be the hunter and the pet working together, not having the pet do all the work and therefore get focused on and DPS’ed down to the ground as a method of handicapping hunters.

  13. Palladiamors

    I disagree, Nanotrev. A large part of being a beast master is knowing what to do with your pet and when. I think speccing as beast master should mean having to actually know how to control your NPC pet, and not just about spamming shots everytime they are off of cool down. As I previously stated, my pets are actually doing very well, to the point that even a three-tenacity stacked tauren warrior wasn’t able to kill my spirit beast in to much of a hurry. I’ve also been on the other side of the fence with my death knight, and while I CAN kill pets, it actually takes a good deal longer to off the pet then the hunter.

    SV and MM pets may be frail, but my pets as beast master aren’t. Maybe it’s a spec difference, maybe it’s a play style difference, but I tend to put my pet where the fighting is thickest, with mend pet up, and just let them go. The OP part comes from when pets are raid buffed. Raid buffed, my pet has around as much DPS as I do, and that’s before a critical or beastial wrath.

    Nanotrev, I apologize if this sounds insulting, but do you even play a beast master hunter? A good BM is anywhere from 60-40 to 55-45 with the pet. That isn’t the pet doing all the work, even though the tree is meant to focus on the pet. I think a large part of the problem associated with the BM tree is that everyone thinks its the easiest tree to play in the game. From a solo perspective, this isn’t to far off the mark. In a raiding and PvP perspective, its far from the truth. I’ll let Nimizar, Rikaku, or Ryai tell you about the raiding aspect of the hunter, but for PvP, if I don’t focus my pet correctly then I am literally nearly halving my damage potential one a single target. If I don’t properly care for my pet, I am potentially losing the same. Add that onto how much a hunter has to keep themselves out of trouble, and you find yourself juggling the survival of TWO characters as opposed to just one.

    I think the balance between hunter and pet for beast master is about right, damage wise. However, as I have previously stated, that nerf to beastial wrath is going to hurt that in the short term. Hell, it’s going to hurt it in the long term, since it buffs the hunter over a period of time instead of the pet or both. Personally, and this is coming from a PvPer and retired raider, I don’t see that as a good thing. Like I said, we’re going to need some kind of compensation for that short term burst we are losing, and I don’t mean that 10% hunter damage increase. A new shot, a new pet attack ability on use by the hunter ala intimidation, something.

  14. Nanotrev

    I do play a Beast Mastery hunter. I really can’t believe how you hit what I was thinking of right on the money.

    “I’ll admit that most of my PvP occurs in duels, BGs, and world PvP with BGs taking the cake. Hunter pet damage is fine. Pet survivability is fine, despite them getting killed half of the time. People will outgear you in BGs and it’s something I run across from time to time. We don’t have weak pets. The point is getting the pet buffed, and getting the hunter buffed in a way that will be balanced. A new shot, and longer CC for pets to use, sounds like the key to me. Why? The nerf to Bestial Wrath will hurt a lot in PvP. Take how long you can avoid CC and cut that in half, as I’ve been trying to get across but the person who has responded to me in another forum who I’ve just quoted hit things right on the money.”

    I quoted the bottom paragraph of what you posted in the official forums. Our pets don’t need to last longer, that’s no my complaint. I’d like longer stuns from the pets, and a nice shot to boost our burst up to where it should be. Perhaps I just have bad luck with my pet.

  15. Rikaku

    Nanotrev:
    “I’d like longer stuns from the pets”

    I agree. I’d love a longer (or even a more reliable!) stun from pets. BTW I’m just speaking from “Intimidation” here, not so much any pet skills that use them XD

  16. Palladiamors

    I do spec thick hide, I was wondering if that might have been one of the differences, since I don’t see a lot of beast masters with it. And I have to agree, intimidation should last for at least five seconds. Two seconds is kind of piddly for a talented stun.

    I think a lot of beast masters pets are just getting focus fired. I think ANYTHING and ANYONE taking focus fire should die, our pets included, so I have no complaints there. PvE hunters have a bit less and a bit more to worry about. Some boss AoEs are plain and simple instant death for a pet, and it’s easy to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  17. Nanotrev

    Palla: I’ve only got one point into Thick Hide because I use the other two points I could put in there for range with Hawk Eye. I’m not really sure if that would help all that much or not. On getting focus-fired, I can definitely say that my Devilsaur gets some attention yet people will actually ignore my Silithid. A horrible, horrible mistake.

    Rikaku: I really thought Intimidation was three? Even then I’ve gotten a comment from a Mage saying it wasn’t worth blinking out of. I’d snatch up a Ravager in a heartbeat if those changes went through that let us pick the pet’s talent tree. I’d have a total of five seconds of stun time and a very bad-ass looking Ferocity pet. If only they had Gore as well ;)

  18. Palladiamors

    It’s two seconds, unfortunately. And I like Hawkeye, but not enough to sacrifice any of my ‘nessecary’ talents. Speaking of which, http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?hunter#9fDWR2UE2DpG-,,10433 is my spec, and http://www.wowhead.com/?petcalc#mdd00fc0zhkob is my spirit beastie. My wolf is a little different, but the general idea is the same. With the coming nerf, I may have to drop lick your wounds for charge or boars swiftness, though. We’ll see how badly it screw up my mobility come live patch.

  19. Kalimac

    Just to issue an idea since some hunters have said this.
    THis is just an idea.

    Impaling Shot: Fires an impaling shot dealing x damage and then bleeding for y damage over 9 seconds. Also increases pet damage done to that target when the bleed is in effect by 15%. 12 second cooldown.

  20. Palladiamors

    That would actually give people a reason to use a rhino again, and isn’t a bad idea at all. I like that shot idea, Kalimac.

  21. Ryai

    Yeah but the question is would Blizzard impliment a shot that can cause bleed damage when they did a bleed talent in mm? :/ I doubt it.

    Mean look at pets, they give Ferocity the most survival, granted at the expense of dps, but those talents could really work out in cunning and tenacity, yet they don’t have them. And all Tenacity gets is a +heal every time pet growls.

    I mean hell +heal/happiness would be better- like what Ferocity has. How hard is it to incorperate that. But meh that’s pet talking and not TBW.

    I don’t like this change- was in a nexus run on my orc, and the only reason we didn’t wipe when the dps and tank decided to lol pull was guess what. Me. And my Devilsaur. And it took everything I had to surviuve getting slammed on, kite and then take down the path mobs. INCLUDING an 18 sec TBW.

    Which I just managed to pull off just before Dante died to the onslaught.

  22. Scott

    Easily 95% of the time when I use BW it’s for offensive purposes, so while the “trinket” change is nice, it’s going to have very limited impact overall.

    50% mana reduction, IF they actually do it, would be sort of neat but not great – I mean it’s not like I’m coming off BW particularly low on mana even now with 18 seconds of it so not sure why they think this is such a great idea – now if they were also talking about dropping the CD on BW that could be a very different matter (on several levels), but it doesn’t look like that’s going to happen.

    Although it’s tempting to say “Blizzard hates hunters!” my gut tells me this is more of a “change for the sake of change” than anything else. We’ll see.

  23. Palladiamors

    Unfortunately Scott, it’s more of a “Change for the sake of arena”. I’d probably be less aggrivated if it were just for the sake of change.

  24. Scott

    I guess – I can’t really comment on PVP much for lack of firsthand experience, but from what I’ve heard secondhand, BM hunters haven’t seriously been considered to “own” at PVP for a long time, so if it is a PVP oriented nerf the grounds would seem especially weak (not that that would stop Blizzard, I know)…

    Personally I have no objection to changes that allow BM hunters to retain their overall power but require a finer degree of pet micromanagement, if only to try and shut up people who say BM spec is “easy” due to so much power being invested in an AI creature… instead of a chimaera or explosive shot, for example, the BM hunter might have “pounce” which causes the pet to deliver an extra hard melee hit in exchange for some of your mana, which shares CD with a (limited) shell shield effect that is also manually triggered only, and powered by hunter mana, etc etc.

    But instead it just seems they are taking away 3 or 4 things and giving back 2. I don’t want BM spec to just be considered good for taming spirit beasts…

  25. Palladiamors

    Let me explain, Scott. In one of the recent arena tournaments, there was a particular team type consisting of an enhancement shaman, a beast master, and I think a paladin. The team make up revolved around not being CC-able, through talented earthbind pulses and beastial wrath/the beast within. This team composition did well enough to actually win the tournament. The idea behind it was to resist or outright forgo the CC of the popular RMP team, since basically anyone fighting an RPM team is down a member most of the match.

    So I wasn’t exactly right, they didn’t nerf it because of PvP, they nerfed it because of arena. Maybe I am just inflexible, but I have never considered arena to be real PvP. Rather, it’s just glorified multi-person dueling which focus’s on class imbalance and whose healer can run away the best.

  26. Palladiamors

    As my second, and further proof of this being the reason behind the Beastial wrath/The beast within nerf, they’ve also nerfed the enhancement shamans talented earthbind so that it no longer makes anyone immune to CC. Now it….increases the slowing speed from earth shock.

  27. Palladiamors

    As my third, and for clarification, Earthbind totem talented just made people immune to snares for five seconds after being dropped, and then upon pulsing freed people from snares. Now it just does the pulse, and drops attack speed by 10%. But you get the picture. A team combination was ‘to good’ and had to be nerfed.

  28. Nimizar

    @Rock: PvE balance matters in cutting edge progression guilds where players are competing for slots in the raid group. Blizzard have done a good job in getting the various DPS specs closer than they have been in the past, but you are still highly unlikely to see something like a frost mage or BM hunter in the raid group for a world first kill – the difference in DPS is just too great (for hunters, we’re talking over 1000 dps, or more than 10%, difference between the highest theoretical BM DPS and the highest theoretical MM DPS).

    @Palla (re. pet raiding survivability): I haven’t actually raided as BM in Wrath (I was behind the gear curve due to taking a few months break, so I went SV in order to at least contribute Replenishment to the other mana users). However, there are definitely still quite a few fights where AoE is utterly brutal to pets, even with 3/3 Avoidance (Heigan in Naxx and Mimiron in Ulduar come to mind). One advantage of going SV or MM is that the impact of the pet dying is lower. (Note that BM pet health isn’t actually all that much higher than non-BM in a DPS spec, since you skip the survivability talents in favour of MOAR DPS. The only advantage I can think of is from going 2/2 Wild Hunt instead of 1/2).

  29. Ryai

    Weren’t Druids nerfed cause of LOL ARENA- and it didn’t even affect resto druids really, it affected the others. And then the scare beast change? You know with the instant cast and druids CRIED OVER IT!? It was because evidently one dev couldn’t beat a druid in pvp. And I still like it when people whined it’d be spam castable! Yeah I mean it has a 20 sec cd, it barely would last 10 seconds now, and yeah it’s to OP!? A cat is eating my face and it’s to OP!? And even now when I do get it off on lower alts it misses, MISSES!? or is resisted! I mean I barely even bother with it anymore it’s useless.

    USELESS.

    aurg.

    And now we get nerfed thanks to arena. WAY TO GO GUYS. Cause really Arena is what EVERYONE plays! Like EVERYONE is a raider! Or EVERYONE PVPs!

    /facepalm

    I’m not happy atm.

  30. Pikaley

    I dont know if anyone has thought of this but just an idea, I think this would solve some of our melee and burst prob and be perfect talent for bm, take something of a mix of a locks meta, and a druid bear, let us turn into a beast for x amount of seconds, and give us increased melee atk power, more armor and some beastly skills, maybe even add a bwish buff to pet while we transform?

    Dont know how good this really is but just something thats ben floatin in my mind

  31. Palladiamors

    Actually Pika, I had a slightly different idea for Cataclysm, though I doubt they’d go with it. Ranged weapons that go into the melee slots for characters, like one handed pistols or short range shot guns. Make them the same strength or maybe a bit weaker then melee weapons of the same level, and allow us to use our shots in melee range. It’d fix pretty much all of our problems. The only real issue is that it’d probably require adding a new weapon type into the game, and Blizzard seems really loathe to do that.

  32. Palladiamors

    Okay, not ALL of our problems, but our short range ones.

    And that was what I’d heard Nim. Like this or that boss being able to hit for 9999999999999999999999 damage on certain AoEs that no one is logically supposed to be within range of, that sometimes pets can’t make it out of, or even day to day AoE that finally just wears them down faster then you can keep them up. What I am afraid of is that Blizzard is going to decide that pet are basically meant to be little tanks, ala voidwalker, and nerf their damage to hell, while buffing hunter damage to make up for it.

  33. Pikaley

    to palla

    good idea, but even if i dont use my swords/axes/w/e i still like having a cool looking weapon at my side =P

    another id ea i had was maybe instead of transforming into an animal maybe transform into a race worgen kinda mix, u know grow some claws get mad and start wailing on stuff in melee for awhile =P

  34. Flinkbaum

    In Vanilla WoW, and in TBC it’s safe to say my main was my BM Hunter. I like the big-pet-thing. In Anarchy Online, I played an Engineer, with a robot that rivals any Prot Warrior.

    Now my BM Hunter is mostly a crafting alt. I play the new-and-improved BM Hunter. It’s called an Unholy Death Knight. Why, for one glyph and far fewer talents, I have a pet to rival any BM pet. Even has the stun, and I can call one back instantly if it dies.

    Not only that, but my Unholy DK has better crowd control, self-heals, still has tons of ranged damage and abilities, takes much less damage, gives all my chums 155 str + 155 agil + 13% additional magic damage, and has even MORE PETS! Every 3 minutes I can whip out a gargoyle that puts any BM pet to shame, and every ten minutes I can summon an ARMY that will very quickly solo (while I lay down for a nap) any BM Hunter that still hasn’t figured out that Blizzard intends them to become Unholy DKs to be able to have all the things that BM Hunters have always deserved.

    I have to ask if anyone at Blizzard has really sat down and compared BM Hunter to Unholy DK. Because the similarity is high, but the disparity in ability and power is GIGANTIC.

  35. Dweezill

    Pikalay,
    I still like the idea of getting rid of “Eyes of the Beast” and making the 51-point talent for BM the ability to permanently become your pet. Then we could melee dps or tank (if your pet is set to tenacity skills). They already have the system to do it. just look at Druids. I think that would be a very cool ability for huntewrs, and it would kinda fix the problem of “We want the hunter to be more powerful than the pet” thing. If we become the pet, there will only be opne toon’s power to worry about.

  36. BoSheck

    What about a Stampede ability? Soemthign to replace a little used talent deep in the BM tree. Basically empty your stables for X seconds to wail one someone/their friends. Channeling maybe?

  37. Elenion

    @Dweezill

    Well instead of becoming your pet, I like the idea of riding your pet to combat as one unit, think back huntress in WC3. They could also work with Aspect of the Beast in that regard as it is useless at the moment.

  38. Palladiamors

    No, Dwezil. Just no. Part of being a hunter, and one of my favorite parts, is the synergy between hunter and pet. Literally the last thing I want for the class is to destroy that through getting rid of the pet in any way. Maybe for a limited amount of time, ala metamorphosis, but honestly even then I don’t think it fits, or feels right. We’re hunters, not druids. Shape shifting ain’t our thing.

  39. Rikaku

    Agreed with Palla
    Also, if we gained any sort of ability to tank, we would overall have our dps nerfed. We wouldn’t be pure-dps anymore, we’d be like shamans and druids who are hybrids.

  40. Nanotrev

    I’ve just posted this and it’s generated some discussion. Although, here’s what the conclusions have come to.

    Other poster-
    I was not suggesting that they should actually change the shot names. I was just making a random observation about what might happen if they started from scratch. Sorry for the confusion there.

    To help understand my other point, remember that the only reason MM hunters use chimera shot and arcane shot is because chimera shot has a cooldown. If chimera shot did not have a cooldown, then they would just spam chimera shot over and over, because that one does more damage.

    That is one of the things that could (should?) change with a focus system. It will be like energy. Instead of being limited by cooldowns, we will be limited by focus regen, just like rogues and feral druids. The thing that keeps them from spamming mutilate or shred or backstab is that those moves cost 60 energy (before talents) and they only have 100 energy (before talents). So they can do one (usually) but then have to wait until they have enough energy for the second one. That’s how Blizzard controls spamming. It’s different with mana using classes, because their mana pool is larger than an energy pool by comparison, so they can fire off a ton of attacks in rapid succession unless they are limited by cooldowns.

    So, imagine that chimera shot and arcane shot cost 60 focus. If you’re a marksman hunter, whenever you have 60 focus, you’ll fire a chimera shot. Chimera does more damage than arcane shot, so barring immunities, you would never have any reason to use arcane shot. Survival will be similar. There probably won’t be a shared cooldown on arcane and explosive anymore (in fact, there probably shouldn’t be shared cooldowns on any shots) because again, why spend 60 focus to use an arcane shot when you can use that same 60 focus on an explosive shot, which does much more damage.

    This is why feral druids don’t use claw. Mangle costs the same amount of energy and does more damage. Assassination rogues won’t use backstab, for similar reasons (plus the positioning issue).

    One of the things the developers specifically said they wanted to do with a focus system is get rid of many (all?) cooldowns on hunter shots and let focus be the limiting factor instead, like those other classes. We will be about smart resource management instead of watching which ability comes off cooldown and mashing it. We won’t need to have more shots added to our arsenal just so we have something to do while waiting for other abilities to be available.

    Myself-
    I like the idea, not to mention it puts even more dependency on kiting. That’s not a bad thing, as for hunters that kite well already then it’ll be natural for us. I see feral druids doing well enough with their energy as feral. It makes more sense then, to add a more reliable shot that’s good for our burst damage or buff one that already exists and then perhaps add more help from the pet to keep us at range since if we use our focus on attacks we may not have any left over to use our spells that help us escape such as Deterrence in case they stay in melee for too long or Disengage. It would be much more useful to therefore give the Beast Mastery pet a larger role in keeping our enemies at range. MM hunters might have their talents that are based around regenerating mana changed to regenerating focus, while a SV hunter might have something similar to that as well like they do now with Scatter Shot staying as an SV talent since they’d need more time to get their focus back, Steady Shot helping all three specs out in a raiding environment.

    Other poster-
    Right. And as between those two choices, I prefer “buff one that already exists” because if they add a new shot, then either that shot never gets used because it’s not as good as arcane shot, or it’s better than arcane shot and then arcane shot disappears from every hunter’s bars. Arcane shot isn’t particularly interesting by itself anyway, but if it’s going to be there then they need to make sure at least one spec wants to use it. Otherwise they need to just kill it and replace it with something else entirely.

    Myself-
    Exactly, but it still brings up a good question. While we’re busy regenerating our focus, what kind of CC from us or our pets would be the most favorable for us while retaining balance so that our spec doesn’t become overpowered? While it may be required I’d hate to waste focus on Concussive shot and have to continue reapplying it. A stun or slowing ability would be much more favorable, along with keeping Intimidation at the cost of 0 focus being that it comes from our pet anyways. It’s just a command from the hunter. I’d like to stress that improved stuns and root durations from Beast Mastery pet would be a very nice thing to have along with possibly having a short daze effect being worked into Arcane as well.

    Edit
    Another thing is, which abilities should cost focus, and which shouldn’t? Should it just be our shots being that they’re the main source of hunter damage or all of our other abilities as well? Pets already work off of their own source of focus so there’s no need to think much into what their abilities will cost unless there’s a new idea for a pet skill.
    ————–
    So, what do you guys think? It sounds like things in the way of shots have been worked out already (or so it appears) and that we would use our pet for CC, but what forms of CC would be appeal to us yet remain balanced? I took some ideas from multiple places (including this thread) and posted them for everyone to see on the official WoW damage dealing forum. I know there’s been a moderator snooping around in that thread as two trolls were attacking it this morning and both were reported and removed in less than five minutes after they’d been flagged for being detrimental. There are scores of good, balanced ideas I’ve posted in that thread and would very much appreciate feedback in this thread here.

    http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=19820636232&sid=1

  41. Gimlion

    I really REALLY don’t want to be Focus based, we are NOT BROKEN, repeat NOT BROKEN using mana/cooldowns and it seems to work JUST FINE!!! the fact that they are now doing a switch like this after several years of mana working great makes me more then a little steamed, it’ll be like relearning the feel of a Hunter, which i really don’t want to do, so in my mind it is plain and utterly stupid. my 2 cents worth

  42. Nanotrev

    I like the idea, at least, as Beast Mastery. Our pet does a lot of the work anyways and if you’re good at kiting it shouldn’t be a problem if they do things correctly in giving us adequate defensive abilities as well as some things that don’t cost any focus.

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