Catching Up with the 3.2.2 PTR

Patch 3.2.2 has been on the Public Test Realms (PTR) since well before BlizzCon, but so far I’ve not said a word about it. I usually love tracking the progress of the PTR, but between BlizzCon and real-life commitments and distractions, I’ve been remiss about keeping up with this one.

Tonight, however, Blizzard deployed PTR build 10433 — a build that is causing quite a stir among Beast Mastery hunters in particular — and so I thought it was high time to catch up.

Let’s start at the beginning: minor patches like 3.2.2 usually don’t have a lot in the way of new content (compared to major content patches like 3.2), but this one includes a level 80 revamp of the classic Onyxia encounter to celebrate WoW’s five-year anniversary.

As usual, there are a bunch of class and balance tweaks. For hunters, the official PTR notes include only a handful of bug fixes:

  • Hunter Tier-9 2-Piece Bonus: Critical damage from Serpent Sting will now work properly with the Mortal Shots and Expose Weakness talents.
  • Master’s Call: This ability now correctly removes the snaring component of Infected Wounds, Frostfire Bolt, and Slow.
  • Trap Mastery: Tooltip now states the correct amount of snakes summoned.

Real exciting, eh? But there is one data-mined change that is causing some contention. MMO Champion reported today that the latest build includes this change for Beast Mastery:

  • The Beast Within now lasts 10 sec (Down from 18 sec) but now also increases all damage you deal by 10% at all time.
  • Bestial Wrath now lasts 10 sec. (Down from 18 sec)

Ghostcrawler himself responded almost immediately to a post about this change on the Damage Dealing forum:

I love data-mined patch note day.

It should be no surprise to anyone who has been on these boards for long that we’re trying to chill out abilities that convey offensive and defensive bonuses with the same button press. At the same time, BM damage was a little low and too dependent on the pet. With this change, hopefully, Bestial Wrath becomes more of a defensive ability while taking Beast Within will boost hunter (and just the hunter) damage at all times.

I call it more of a defensive cooldown because it now breaks all CC like a PvP trinket.

For myself, I find Ghostcrawler’s explanation fascinating. I never would have considered Bestial Wrath as a defensive ability.

96 thoughts on “Catching Up with the 3.2.2 PTR

  1. Ryai

    Edit: Also I pvp as BM. I pvp on my belf and my orc as BM maybe not ‘pure’ as I’ve got some talents in mm, but main bloat is in the bm tree like always. I’ve gone toe to toe with almost everything from my hurtle from 60-70 on my orc and 50-66 on my belf. And let me tell you it’s horribly hard- not as hard as I found it on Ryai, but it’s getting there. When I don’t lag it’s fine but even when I don’t lag well I have to blow everything to stay alive. I don’t even bother with melee attacks- I don’t have even wing clip on my bar. I know if I get in melee and stay in melee range, I’m dead. It’s not like the past where I could possibly wing clip-procc-flee like crap.

    No now it’s dead time.

    I abuse the fact I can throw down three traps at a time, I abuse detterence and the disengage glitch. If you press it enough before it goes off you can get 2-3 jumps off. Sadly, this means you can hurl yourself off high places even more in AV/AB/etc.

    I’ve died mid air and had to wait a few seconds for my corpse to fall thanks to dots + disengage. i’ve died from over jumping. I died from using detterence. Or not using it in time rather.

    But the sad thing? The sad thing is, when I know how to play I can play better than some other hunters in better gear. I seem to be as bad as an MM and SV with stealthing and just shooting the crap from the backs, instead of wading in all BIG RED PET like I remember with Ryai.

    I’m having to learn new skills, new strategies, and it’s hard. Yes it’s hard, and if you want to do it I suggest doing it like how I’m doing it, level up and pvp in the new bracket. The world’s changed and not for the better for hunters.

    and I’m learning how cheap rogues and paladins and dk’s are all over again. .-.

  2. Dweezill

    Did anybody notice that in the new patch notes, every class listed got more buffs, yet we keep getting nerfed. I really hope they have something good innstore for us for Cataclism. At this point in time, i reallt don;t see the new expansion being worth my money. I play a hunter because i like my pets. I play BM because i like have a powerful pet. I don;t wanna play another class,m and I don;t wanna play another spec, but it seems that Blizz is pushing really hard to get people to do one or the other/ Like I said, Blizz better come up with something really a,azing for hunters if they exp[ect to get any money off me for the expansion.

  3. Zukiji

    Ok, as annoying this is, will that mean that hunters won’t be able to safely tame King Krush solo anymore? I mean it’s rare to see people with it anyway, but Bestial Wrath plays a big part in the tame. Crap pet out, send on Dino, Use BM and release fast, then start the tame, with that 8 second difference, who knows what KK could do to us. Ahh well, whatever the cost, people will find out how to get him soon enough, using Heroism/Haste related shizzness, I mean, cmon, people managed to get the Spirit Wolf back in BC :)

    p.s. I’m real tired at the moment, so bear with me if I made no sense, I tend not to on forums or anything else anymore.. yet I am English :O

  4. akyo

    *The Beast Within now lasts 10 sec (Down from 18 sec) but now also increases all damage you deal by 10% at all time.*

    now i like 10% bonus. but no. not happy about a 10 sec BW. to much CC out there.
    wtb better concussive shot.

  5. emrsonbigins

    I ran some math with a hunter doing 4000 DPS and 45% of damage done by pet. This change is a small increase in damage, about 3%, but it increases mana use by 2% which means more time in viper. The net increase is +2% damage for a 45% reducting in time where the hunter can’t be CC’d (something I’ve found quite useful on Auriya fight in Ulduar (crazy cat lady) and her constant fears). Depending on the fight, this could actually be a nerf.

    For those who like math:

    3.2 3.2.2
    Base Damage 320,000 339,200
    Wrath Beast increase 16,200 9,000
    Wrath Hunter increase 3,960 2,200

    Total Damage, 80 sec: 340,160 350,400 (+ 10,240 damage / +3.0%)

    Mana Use: 160/sec
    Base 12,800 12,800
    Wrath savings – 576 – 320
    Total Mana Used 12,224 12,480 (+2.1%)

    Viper Damage Reduction
    4000 DPS
    80 sec X 2.1 % = 1.68 sec in viper at 50% damage
    4000 X 1.68% X 50% = -3360 damage

    Net damage increase: 10,240 – 3360 = 6880 over 80 sec for net +2%

  6. Ninetythree (Auchindoun)

    and here i was hoping BM would get buffed so i could actually bring my sweet ass Skoll spirit beast to raids and dungeons and not DPS like i’m nubtarded. so much for that theory……

  7. Gimlion

    ………. so i was reading the convo’s going on, and thought i agreed with alot of what you guys were saying, then BAMM palla mentioned the switch to Focus, which i had forgotten about, and about cried…. i don’t want no stinky Focus, mana is just fine for hunters, and fixing something that isn’t broken is dumb… *sigh*

  8. Ryai

    WILLING TO BUY MANA FOR HUNTERS.

    We were broken- yes we were, for mana, untill they finally FIXEd AotV and made it a god damn godsend even for the downtime, it’s gotten to where I can be so lazy while grinding I can just go shroooom AotV and continue on. Less downtime of grinding is win.

    But re-reading Palla’s post now I am scared for those talents :/

    Why is it they feel they HAVE TO FIX THINGS THAT ARE NOT BROKEN. And upon doing so break things horribly.

    Didn’t they learn that with the FIRST MANA REGEN CHANGE THEY DID.

  9. Dweezill

    Ninetythree,
    I have been using Skoll in raids and I have been doing just fine in dps…. anywhere from 4400-4800 dps on Ulduar bosses. That’s not too terribly bad. Now, last night I went raiding in Ulduar, and my dps took a terrible dive. i used the same rotation, same gear…. but for some reason my dps was cut nearly in half. i have been trying to figure it out all morning and for the love of God, i can’t figure out why my dps suddenly took a nosedive. So, if anybody knows of anything that may have changed for us in the last day or two, let me know.i would love to know why my dps is hurtiong as of late.

  10. Rikaku

    Emrsonbiggs:
    How long was your testing? I’ve been hearing (can’t actually play yet) that on longer fights the overall dps is down (so 3.2 is better). Meanwhile on shorter fights the new (3.2.2.) is better. It makes sense overall. If you use BW alot in a fight (like say maybe Koralon where you can pop it about 3 times) or some of the Ulduar bosses (pop-up book guy) where you use BW more than that, it’s a noticeable loss in dps. However, in PvE play (such as heroics) you will see the “buff”.

    Nimizar:
    I’m not quite sure how one can see the nerf to BW/TBW and say our pets are not losing any damage. They’re losing 45% of a 50% damage increase uptime. They are getting nerfed while the Hunter themselves are being buffed. But as Ryai pointed out, what good does that really do? Maybe if BM hunters were allowed to stack AGI and take full advantage of the buffs AGI gives like MM and SV it’d actually be worthwhile, but pets don’t scale with that so it’s basically a wasted gem slot to gem for it.

    And I don’t blame people for saying Blizz doesn’t know what they’re doing. We’ve watched them again and again with the Hunter class this past 10 months.

    * They’ve done nothing but destroy one spec (some will even argue 2 for some time) and buff one spec; at the same time talking about making more specs “viable” and at the same time saying “we want to reward harder playstyles”. In reality they meant “reward harder rotations” because that’s all it is. BM isn’t “easier” to play because of our steady shot spam, we have to control another character (our pet) who does upwards of 45% of our dps. MM is easiest if anything.

    * They’ve talked about buffing BM and making more pets viable and giving pets more survivablity. Instead, they bloated our pet’s talent trees and tried to fix BM through “BM Only” talents. Our “pets survivablity” was gained at 40% stamina from the Hunter at the cost of a useful talent such as “Heart of the Phoenix”. Our pets weren’t made “more viable”, instead Ferocity lost 5% damage, Tenacity +5% armor and Cunning 5% HP. Did it make any pets more viable? No. We’re still using cats, raptors, and wolves…maybe Devilsaur if you’re still hanging in there.

    * My favorite part: a Developer stating that a spec focused on increasing their personal damage through the damage of their pet is “focusing too much on the pet”. Meanwhile, they stated previously they’d like us to start using more AGI instead of AP (something that would in fact, help BM hunters alot more if we could start gearing like other Hunters) and there’s no help in sight for that.

    So yes, I completely agree with everyone else who states that obviously Blizzard doesn’t know what they’re doing. Why else nerf a spec that is hardly even played anymore? Having 3 BM per server is too many? Too OP? So our only burst is nerfed? I’m sorry, I just don’t see Blizzard’s logic. Usually I try to find the silver lining here, but that 10% Hunter only dmg increase just isnt cutting it. If I wanted to increase my damage, I’d roll MM or SV.

  11. Icecrystal

    I’m kinda beginning to think about speccing to MM, even though I’ve been BM all time. But seriously, for me it seems they only nerf BM. I mean, why would they nerf us, when there’s so many other overpowered classes out there? Warlocks, Druids, Death Knights, whatever! Why BM? We’re not even near the dps of those classes.

    Geez… :/

  12. Guthorm

    /agree Rikaku
    i mean, 10 seconds? wth…you get longer durations from talent procs…this is why i changed from BM, even tho i loved the spec, they seem to be bent on destroying it….

  13. Venaal

    “At the same time, BM damage was a little low and too dependent on the pet.”

    I wonder why BEAST masters would be dependent on their pet :P

  14. Nachtwulf

    Well? Okay, so you people all hate the change with a purplefaced loathing.

    THIS IS WHAT PTRs ARE FOR.

    Download the client. Report on the change as sucking every chance you get. Post on the forums. If you QQ enough, they’ll change it. Get your friends to complain about it. Don’t just bitch and gripe on forums Bliz barely reads, if at all. They don’t watch Mania’s blog like some marvelous pulse of the hunter community. They make decisions based on reports from the PTR and PTR forums and that’s pretty much it.

  15. Palladiamors

    Okay, Nacht? This is a place for people to vent just like any other. I have every intention of letting how stupid this is be known, but I also know Blizzard. This won’t be changing.

    To Nimizar and anyone else calling this a buff, I stated quite clearly that over the course of a regular boss fight, it’d result in about a 2% DPS INCREASE for the hunter. But that’s OVER TIME, and does nothing for immediate damage, which is something hunters tend to have a small problem with anyway. That’s losing eight seconds of a 50% DPS increase for our pets every cooldown, and that’s not a small amount.

    And Nim, don’t try to throw my words back at me. That 10% is close to nothing in PvP, especially at the moment, and ESPECIALLY for beast masters. See the tick is, and I know this may come as a big surprise, but Beastial Wrath is the beast masters go to button. It’s what you hit when you need something or several somethings dead in a hurry while soloing. It’s what you hit every cooldown while raiding. It’s what you hit virtually every cooldown in PvP. It was apparently a pretty big arena tool just recently. So you can’t tell me that almost cutting it’s up time in half is a good thing in any way form or fashion, nor can you say that bull !@#$ excuse cuts it.

    And I can give you one HUGE reason why. Metamorphisis. 20% damage increase, 600% armor increase, 6% less change to be hit by criticals, 50% CC reduction time, AND CAN BE GLYPHED TO LAST FOR 36 SECONDS. Do you know what the only difference between this and Beastial wrath is? Meta isn’t full CC immunity, so it will never be touched.

    There are others. Bladestorm, berserk, killing spree, Shadowform, blast wave, dragons breath, typhoon and thunderstorm off the top of my head all confer both defensive and offensive aspects at the press of a button. Blade storm in particular is nasty, since it also effects up to four targets around the warrior while making them un-CCable, and does this attack seven times over the duration for the warriors weapon damage, which is not only considerable but has the change to deep wounds upon critical for all four targets.

    In the end, I am not saying Beastial wrath didn’t need a nerf, the duration was a bit long, and I have said that. What I am saying is that we didn’t get anything to really make up for that damage lost in that time span. Over a period of several minutes and something like three beastial wraths, sure, but no per beastial wrath period, and it pisses me off.

  16. Kristy

    Finally, some Hunter news from you. Glad for it. Anyways Bestial Wrath should NOT be a so-called “defensive” ability. That is terrible that they’re MESSING with that. That is horrible that they are detracting from pets. I totally agree with the people that are arguing for the pets. But in the end, I do like how it’ll now break all crowd control.

  17. Jay

    I agree that I never considered Bestial Wrath a defensive ability, because playing a frost mage I would get completely obliterated by BM hunters. It was basically a kill-mode switch; I had no choice but to Ice Block and then pray my shields would hold.

    I do hope that those of you who are disappointed about the duration reduction will see just how overpowered it was in pvp. It is of course odd that there weren’t more hunters represented in successful arena teams, but I hope you don’t use that as the counter argument for the nerf.

  18. Rowdypotter

    Nacht? I second Palla on this. When have they ever listened to PTR and made CORRECT changes or didn’t go through with the proposed change that actually made sense to the hunter class overall (especially in BM) that did not classify as an all-out nerf? The hunters are now mostly a minority in this instance because after every patch all we see is a letdown to the class in the BM tree. I’ve tested in the PTR back in the day and rarely do I see what most of us have been complaining about get fixed or changed. More power to those who did, but so far…. nada.

    Empty promises are all that Blizzard have to offer to the Hunter class and the BM tree thus far… and it won’t likely change anytime soon.

    Nim? Unless you’ve played and tested out everything the way Rikaku and Palla and Ryai have done and due to their dedication to the hunter class and the BM tree… you’ll never see or get a feel of exactly how they KNOW how the class and spec is played to its fullest extent….. then you don’t have a leg to stand on in what you said.

    This is more of a business political move on blizzard’s part without even thinking things through and making changes for change’s sake without really looking at it in-depth and relying on nebulous “data” (wherever they got them, i don’t know) and from the QQ-ing of crybabies (aka bad players) about people who actually know their class and can play it effectively. Anyone can simply hit buttons and whatnot to make use of the class and their skills and its easy to get into a routine of shots/abilities/spells u like to use best… but its the player with SKILL that can make even a “bad” class/spec look good, as Palla have shown with what he knows.

    If the majority of the hunters here say its not a buff and actually a nerf, then they obviously know what they’re talking about because they actually know their class. This forum may be about pets… but its also – in a way – about the hunter, because without hunters, there would be no pets to talk about.

    We vent here because a lot of us share the same beliefs and know our class well. Venting on the official WoW forums are a fifty-fifty deal and a very low chance that someone from the dev team actually reads it and gets it…. honestly… have you read their hunter Q and A and compared it to the actual topic/post in the forum? None of the actual good points other posters there were ever cited.

    If they didn’t “listen” well then, I am not surprised that they are still not “listening” well now.

  19. Nazthori

    Brb gaiz.. levelin’ a drood..
    ..Crap, crap, crap. Bestial Wrath is fine. Duration is fine. People who QQ about BM are the ones who think all BM hunters are crap and cannot amount to anything no matter how they play. It’s clear they either never encountered a GOOD BM hunter, or just want to be able to faceroll them again.

  20. Palladiamors

    Oh, and a bit off topic but back to what some one was saying, you CAN use beastial wrath mid fear. I’ll go back into a few more BGs and test it again, but…..yea. Odd that I never noticed that before. More later.

  21. Palladiamors

    Actually, as my double on the defensive side of it, how many people use it as a reactive ability? Personally, and perhaps this is just me, I don’t seem my pet running away in fear and say “Oh, I need to use beastial wrath!” I am not going to hold back beastial wrath just to wait for some one to CC me. The only possible exception to this rule, and probably the only thing I am looking forward to, is being ganked by a rogue. Now we will have a second ‘trinket’ to help combat them. But in the long run, trying to turn our main offensive ability into a defensive one is just stupid.

  22. Kelwina

    I only do a BG from time to time (pvp’s not my style), but when I do I usually just send my devilsaur at the nearest hordie and go beastial wrath. I’ve always used it as an offensive only ability. Of course while dungeoning or raiding, if I know a fear’s coming up, I’ll try to time my enrage for then, but when you’re BM, you gotta pop beastial wrath the moment it’s up if you want good dps.

  23. Palladiamors

    I wouldn’t be so angry, but this just smacks of a knee-jerk reaction to that arena tournament. If I thought they’d actually put a lot of time and thought into it, instead of blinking at the beast-cleave team winning and then screaming “IT BEAT PMR! NERF!”

  24. Nimizar

    *shrug* These changes are actually tempting me to go back to BM as a raiding spec so YMMV. Especially if they go through with the adjustment to TBW to avoid the increase in BM mana consumption (GC mentioned on the forums that they are considering adjusting the mana cost reduction to 40-50% as it wasn’t their intent to increase BM mana consumption with this change)

    Agreed that my first post neglected the actual pet damage reduction due to the 45% BW duration reduction. Haven’t done the math myself to work out where the break even point is for the hunter damage buff to balance out the pet nerf, but the suggested figure above of a 3-4 minute boss fight sounds about right.

    Also agreed that anything I say about PvP should be taken with a very large grain of salt – I’m definitely armchair quarterbacking on that side of things. However, being less personally involved also gives me the perspective to more easily try to see things from the devs point of view, which can be difficult when something the devs do goes against the grain of a playstyle which represents the investment of a lot of time and effort.

    Changes are rarely (never?) as game breaking as they sometimes appear – pointing that out is the reason you will usually see me taking the contrarian view in the face of cries of “OMG! They made *them* overpowered!” and “Waah! They NERFED *me*!”.

    On other topics that came up…

    As far as Agi vs AP goes, even EJ say the evidence isn’t all that clear cut that AP stacking is the right way to go as BM until you get past 40% unbuffed crit or so (reason being, until that point you get the feedback effect from GftT and Cobra Strikes that can increase pet damage more than the raw AP will and, as was pointed out, Agi scales with more raid buffs than AP does).

    Regarding BM shot rotations: if you don’t have Aimed in a BM raiding spec then Multi-Shot takes its place in the rotation (the only time it doesn’t is if there is CC near the main target, but how often does that happen these days?). A PvP spec should have Aimed Shot :)

  25. Pingback: Mania’s Arcania » More on Bestial Wrath Changes

  26. Mania Post author

    I’ve put up a new post with the additional information that Ghostcrawler posted today. I don’t want to split the discussion, but I figured it would be good if everyone was working from the same basic info.

  27. vampyreblood

    I have a bm spec hunter and im also mad about them making BW last less amount of time. and too rikaku saying BM is the lowest dps spec for hunters, thats not true as long as you’re geared equaly. its actualy the highest. i out dps MM and Survival hunters equaly geared on a regular basis and have at times out dps’d better geared MM and survival.

  28. Rikaku

    Vampryeblood:
    “and too rikaku saying BM is the lowest dps spec for hunters, thats not true as long as you’re geared equaly.”

    There’s no way that two equally geared AND equally skilled (in their respect specs) Hunters (one BM and one SV) would be equal damage. I am in almost identical gear to my SV friend and he blows me out of the water everytime. Now I have beaten SV and MM hunters who don’t know what they’re doing.

    But as I said, if you have a skilled SV Hunter and a skilled BM hunter, that BM is not going to outdmg that SV Hunter (even if they’re in exact gear). This has been theory tested over and over and has proven true (that’s what pre-mades are truly perfect for).

    Nacht:
    “Download the client. Report on the change as sucking every chance you get. Post on the forums. If you QQ enough, they’ll change it. Get your friends to complain about it. Don’t just bitch and gripe on forums Bliz barely reads, if at all. They don’t watch Mania’s blog like some marvelous pulse of the hunter community. They make decisions based on reports from the PTR and PTR forums and that’s pretty much it.”

    Lets be fair now. Mnay hunters have posted numbers and logic back at Blizzard in order to stop a nerf (AKA ptr 3.1 anyone?). All throughout 3.1′s testing did legit Hunter numbers and feedback come in and say that the nerf was too hard. Blizzard didn’t listen; patch went live. 3 weeks later “We believe we did overnerf the Hunter class.” Literally, that’s what we told them BEFORE it went live and they still didn’t listen, so they don’t exactly listen XD

  29. Nimizar

    Have to correct the last thing I said: Using Aimed or Multi in a BM shot rotation is actually questionable because they don’t hit that much harder than Steady Shot, cost more mana and can’t proc Cobra Strikes the way Steady can. So depending on mana availability, the DPS increase may not be worth it.

    @vampyre: the comparisons are for equal gear between hunters that are each playing their spec to maximum potential. A good hunter that knows their rotation and pet control will always beat a less skilled hunter unless the latter hunter has *much* better gear. (e.g. something as simple as switching to Viper during forced DPS downtime in boss fights will greatly increase DPS in practice, but will never appear on a spreadsheet)

  30. Nimizar

    @Rikaku: the community has been wrong a lot more often than Blizzard though. It’s just so unexceptional that nobody bothers remembering all those cases :)

  31. Palladiamors

    That’s one of the differences in PvP and PvE, Nim. I HAVE to use Aimed shot, since it’s instant cast, and it adds mortal strike to the target. Pre-aimed shot a lot of PvP DPS non-pet comes from the length of time it takes the target to waddle to you through wing clip/frost trap/pet abilities/concussive shot, and you live the rest of your time off of instant cast shots fired behind you. Post-aimed shot is the same, expect you can pour on a bit more damage while running away screaming bloody murder. But unfortunately, unlike in PvE, you really don’t have a choice. You HAVE to eek out that damage in the time span your given, and that time span ain’t much. It’s even less for warriors, DKs, subtly rogues, and enhancement shaman.

  32. Wh33ls

    @Palla for #72;

    That’s my thoughts exactly; I don’t hold back BW for any CC, it’s nice that I have it up when it “does” happens or the CD is over and it’s next in my rotation, but still. I’m going for max damage to kill something as fast as possible.

  33. Wh33ls

    Ok, so the ones that was QQ were a Rogue/Mage/Priest combo.

    Huh.

    So it’s ok for Warriors, Pallies, and DK’s (with their pets, BTW) to rip through them like tin foil, but not BM Hunters with their pets?

    Huh.

    Is it just me, or is there something wrong with that picture?!

  34. Nimizar

    @Palla: I was a bit inaccurate in my correction – what I had wrong was the part about using Aimed and Multi in a normal BM PvE rotation, even though that actually wasn’t the last thing I had said in the previous post. I haven’t confirmed the math myself, but the idea that the DPS increase isn’t worth the mana cost in most cases makes a fair amount of sense (although I may have to plug that into the DPS website at some point to see what those calculations have to say on the topic).

    As you rightly point out, Aimed is pretty much compulsory in hunter PvP specs (it’s also handy in PvE for firing on the move, even if the theoretical top DPS spec for BM skips it).

  35. Rikaku

    Nimizar:
    Yes, I don’t need to list all the times the community has been wrong. But really, what are *we*, the players, going to do to the game when we’re wrong? At worst we don’t play our class well for a few days while we re-gem our gear or change rotations. If Blizzard is wrong, they hurt an entire spec an/or a class. There’s a much bigger difference between a player being wrong and a developer being wrong, and in the latter case, why does the player matter?

    So I don’t think anyones forgotten cases where the community is wrong, I just think that well when someone who doesn’t influence the game is wrong, its not as big a deal as when a creator of the game is wrong and never listened to the community in the first place. =)

    The community wasn’t wrong in 3.0.8. Most Hunters werent saying “BM isnt too OP, It doesnt need to be nerfed”. Most were saying that BM was getting overnerfed in that patch. They said it since day 1 on the 3.0.8 testing. At worst, the players saying BM wasn’t too OP were ill-informed and didn’t even have justifications for their incorrectness. But the players who gave numbers that it was an overnerf weren’t illogicals. The had the numbers to prove that while BM needed a nerf, it was too much.

    Blizz just reassured us that the “community was wrong”. Then after it goes live we get a blue saying “Ok we do think BM got hit pretty hard.” “BM’s numbers are too low.”

    So again, no ones forgetting the community of any class has been wrong, but why does it matter in comparison to the devs? We don’t alter the game, they do.

  36. Daginni

    Ghostcrawler is a moron, he couldnt balence a class even if Abraham Lincoln rose from the Grave with a AK-47 and Demanded it.

    As if BM wasn’t ALREADY Dead. They nurf the only upside of the Tree AGAIN!

    They also Nurfed Armor Pen which, as a MM Hunter, pissed me off.

  37. Scott

    As one who never PVPs except when extremely bored, I have to agree this must be PVP driven – not because I know it for a fact but because I can’t see one valid reason for this nerf from the PVE side so it’s either some sort of (perceived) PVP imbalance or else just pure whimsy.

    110% dmg for 10 seconds doesn’t even come close to 100% dmg for 18 seconds; even if they upped it to 120% for 10 sec it still wouldn’t come close.

    Back when 3.0 came out I thought Blizz finally had a clue about hunters, but then I discovered they’d removed dragonhawk AOE… and made gorillas “the” pve pet… and then all the business with BM DPS… but at least I could say “well 18 seconds is enough for the average encounter, so my BM hunters can still rate”… but now… sounds like that’s going away as well.

    Hope they plan on offsetting the loss in some (meaningful) way, but not holding my breath…

    Meanwhile silithids remain borked – starting to wonder if that will be fixed before Cataclysm…

  38. Mania Post author

    Palladiamors: The song is “The Ultimate Showdown of Ultimate Destiny” by Lemon Demon. You can Google it to find some videos — it’s a bit of a geek thing, so far as I can tell. Oddly I have never seen those videos — I became aware of it because my husband has a thing for Lemon Demon. I find them to be rather second-rate in terms of geek music — I vastly prefer Ookla the Mok — but they do have a few really good songs. Like that one. :>

  39. Palladiamors

    *Laughs* Thank you for filling me in, Mania, I had no idea. Geek rock is still a very new thing overall, and I haven’t really been exposed to it.

    And Scott, I explained the reason for the nerf over in the other thread. This is the second nerf to Beastial Wrath since its inception, and the largest of the two. The first nerf took Beastial Wrath from 100% damage for 12 seconds to 50% for 18. Within their respective time periods, this was a ‘buff’ as explained by BLizzard. However, if you added in the normal damage that the original beastial wrath would have done for those additional six seconds ((And why shouldn’t you, it’s the same time period after all)) then it turned out to be about a 10% damage nerf, and once again a sizeable burst nerf. Beast masters are great with damage over time, and just plain suck in the ‘right now’ damage department.

  40. Nimizar

    @Rikaku: the reason it matters is because *most* of the time, when the devs say X and the community says Y, the devs are proven right. It’s easy to say in hindsight that “hey, this one time when the devs said ‘Horse’ and the community said ‘Ship’, it turned out to be a ship after all”, but when judging the matter before something goes live, you will be right more often by always siding with the devs (since players have a vested interest in minimising any nerfs and maximising any buffs to their primary classes, no matter how hard they try to suppress that instinct).

    This kind of biased reflection on past events happens all the time with events in real life (aka “Eagle Eye Hindsight”) and it’s complete bollocks there as well.

  41. Palladiamors

    Except it isn’t that simple, Nimizar. Actually, I can think of plenty of times where the players have tested and reported things on the PTR ((From balance issues to simple and complicated bugs)) where Blizzard said “La la la!” and totally ignored it. Then, at a later date, went “Whoops!” and had to fix it. The only difference is that usually, they aren’t as verbal about it.

    On the other hand, and this one may be a matter of opinion, but there have been a lot of changes made that the community disapproved of and were right about that were never changed. The difference there is that, well, this is Blizzards game. It is going to go the way Blizzard wants it to go.

    There are three kinds of complaints on the WoW forums. The first are “WAUGH, MY CLASS IS BEING NERFED AND IT’S JUST BAD, I CAN PROVE IT!!!” where a class with an overpowered ability ((Or several, in the Death knights case. *Shudders*)) just had said ability reduced. I refer to this as the nerfing whine, and don’t pay any attention to it. The second is “WAUGH, THIS CLASS HAD AN ABILITY THAT WAS MADE/IS OVERPOWERED, I CAN PROVE IT, NERF!” in which case a class that usually can beat most classes easily, say warriors or frost mages for PvP, or rogues and mages in general for PvP, suddenly found themselves bested by something they didn’t know how to handle and immediately whined about it. This tends to happen a lot after changes or made, or after certain specs start to become popular. This is the “NERF!” whine type, and again should just be ignored. And then you have the third type. “We have run extensive tests of this ability, and found that it is lacking/maybe a bit to much, and here are the numbers to support it.)) This is done by the people who actually know how to play, and can go either in favor of a slight buff, or even in favor a slight nerf. These tend to be the people who really care about their class and the game, or perhaps the people who are really just more hard core about what they do. It is THESE threads that I listen to, and more often then not the threads that get ignored the most.

    So reading over it, in a way the numbers actually support you, Nimizar. By and large, the community is GOING to be wrong. But there almost always some of the more serious players who will do strong testing, and come to these conclusions. Part of the problem, TWO parts of it really, is that Blizzard won’t listen to them, and some how didn’t come to the same conclusion in their internal testing. Beacon of Light, the beast master nerfs, release level death knights, I can probably think of some more but those are fairly large examples for the moment. How do these get past blizzards testing?

    On a tangent, I have to disagree with you about being self interested in nerfs and buffs, HOWEVER, I have to state that people like me are in the minority. I think it comes a lot from having so many higher level characters that I am able to sit back and say “Okay, this needs to be done, and that needs to be reduced, but that could probably take a buff.” For a wide range of classes. Like I agree with the time reduction of Beastial wrath, but I don’t think we were properly compensated for it. It’s because of this wide range of class selection that I can tell you that, far and away, paladins are the worst healers in the game. My druid, and even my up and coming priest, can do everything my paladin can do, only better. HELL, my enhancement shaman can almost heal better then my HOLY priest, and that is a very, very bad thing. The beacon of light buff came at the cost of the holy paladins niche, mana conservation. Now a holy paladin can fully heal two targets….for about half as long. Meanwhile my priest can spam circle of healing, and my druid can HoT up and wild growth, then focus on keeping the tank up and it really takes a lot less effort. I also find it really funny that nearly every healing class ((Shaman are borderline, but are still in a better place then holy)) have all the tools they need, but holy paladins are still expected to be a niche healer. And the only buff to them nearly killed their niche, and gave them what was, at most, a questionable buff that would allow them to keep tank healing even when some one else sniped a heal with one of above AoE healing abilities.

    I could point out other imbalances, but that one has just always struck me the most. It only got worse in wrath, where holies sort of got an HoT, recently….but it requires preparation in the form of Sacred shield. Oh, and holy shock get’s an HoT!…..if you have 2pieces of T8….

    Rant over. I have actually retired my holy paladin, at least until Blizzard decides what they want to do with them. Having one of the healing classes rounded into a corner of niche healing is just bull. And the sad thing is, beacon of light USED to be good, back at the start of beta. It had so much potential to fix paladin’s AoE healing problems…..and then they turned it into that.

    *Coughs* Sadly, none of that was really biased. I didn’t say I couldn’t heal on my paladin, I can still heal with the best of them. I am just tired of it being so much more of a hassle for paladins then any other healing spec.

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