Ghostcrawler’s Arcania: Pet Feedback Needed
Since I haven’t been around much lately, I figured I’d let Ghostcrawler do my posting for me. Here’s some of the interesting (to me at least) things he has said lately. And just so I’m not a complete slacker, I’ve added a call to action (borrowed from Pike) and a mini-rant at the end.
The Ferocious pets were intended predominantly for PvE use. We figured a pet with a stun would not be very popular in a raid encounter compared to a pet that just did more damage. (It is possible in a 5-player dungeon that the stun might come in handy).
Since “Ravage” has traditionally been a stun, it made sense to put them in the Cunning tree.
We are willing to make changes to make the Cunning tree more viable for PvP and other situations. Frankly, most of the community feedback on hunters has been on their shot damage or on which pet provides the highest dps boost in a raid setting. More feedback on hunter pet families and their talent trees would be useful. Too often, though, this discussions wander off topic into the role of the pet or the hunter in general.
Ideally we’d like to see nearly every Ferocious pet and the occasional Cunning pet feel like they were valid choices for PvE and nearly every Cunning pet and the occasional Tenacity pet feel like they were valid choices in PvP. Our priority lately has been on the hunter trees themselves though.
On pet ability utility vs. damage (among other stuff — follow the link for the whole post):
There is a trade-off between damage and utility. We specifically gave some hunter pets raid buff / debuff options in case your group, esp. a 5 or 10-player group, has trouble having access to that bonus. I have seen a lot of wasps out there lately.
But as I also said, more parity among pets is something we want to pursue. Currently most of the hunter discussions on the forums are about SV-MM-BM differences or PvP however.
It’s good to know that pets haven’t fallen off the radar as a major part of hunter balance, and I am especially glad to know that Blizzard would like even more parity among pets. They’ve made great strides so far and I look forward to seeing how they continue. Faster would be better in my opinion, but … if we have to wait then we have to wait.
(Oh, and here’s the mini-rant, as succintly as possible: I really wish that “PvE” didn’t automatically equal “raiding” in every Ghostcrawler post I’ve seen recently. I understand why it does; I just wish it didn’t.)
But setting that aside: As Pike was kind enough to point out on the our own forums, that first GC post I quoted contains a hidden call to action:
More feedback on hunter pet families and their talent trees would be useful.
And Pike is right — pet feedback is right up our alley! So if you’ve got the time and the inclination, lend a hand and let Ghostcrawler know how the pet families and talents stack up.
68 Comments
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – if they’re expected to be able to fill the aggro-holding and potential OT role, ALL tenacity pets need to have an ae threat move, possibly rewarded through their talents.
My idea is, personally, to remove Thunderstomp from gorillas and shift it into the talent trees somewhere. Gorillas could then be provided with a new family-specific ability that has use, but does not make them the “only” viable tenacity pet as they more or less are, currently.
Hehe, I’m glad to see I’m not the only one who thought helping Ghostcrawler out here would be a good idea! As soon as I saw that post by him, I thought, “Wow, that sounds like a job for Mania and the Petopia community!”
@Nirv – Well I do see a lot of hunters with Gorilla’s at the moment and where I will agree with you at a point I’ll say this… I’m not giving up my worm! My worm can hold aggro just as well as a Gorilla plus I get that 2600 armor reduction (Can’t wait til 80) that munchs through almost all armor. And wormy loves munching on him some Onyxia when I go to 3 man her.
Of course at this point I’m really ticked that at this moment I can only USE my worm in general. Because when I bring out another pet (My Devilsaur lets say) I DRAW AGGRO TO HELL AND BACK! Even with Growl on and Cower turned off any of my pets that aren’t Tenacity drop aggro and I get it. Which isn’t the best but then again I melee when I have to. That’s about the only decline I’ve seen since the latest patch, my lack of pet aggro. It’s rather off putting and I’ve not been playing my hunter much (I just recently got the For the Horde! Achievement) as I’ve been wanting to raise my OTHER pets but can’t do well enough if I keep pulling the aggro (especially when my targets are elites <_<)
Nice subjection Nirvana,
The Monkey syndrome is evident among the tenacity pets as of late, and who can blame hunters fro jumping on the band wagon. Their AOE and aggro holding abitys can be simply amazing! I do think that if some kind of aloe ability could be worked into all tenacity pets that would be amazing. Even the possibly of a new talent in the tenacity tree, or even if only accessible with the extra BM points?
I will come back to this thread with a few more ideas once I’m out of the office, really can’t wait to see what other people come up with too.
Lets hope some of our old favorite pets come out of the sidelines with this; at least we know somthing is happening.
Personaly I think the pets talents have been balanced too much for pvp as the unique abilities of the cunning tree have far too short effects or cooldowns. Why not just work them like a mage sheep and other player cc rather than nerf at the root.
Damage mitigation needs a big boost in the tenacity tree to compete with the regen abilities and dps of the ferocity tree.
For instance it would be nice to get my old wind serpent back to a usefull pet but the cooldown on his skill since wotlk has made his skill less viable than burning crusade. I really feel for the ravagers too mentioned in the source of GCs reply.
without some real boosts to cunning and tenacity trees and a few reworks on some individual pet taents I think pet divercity will remain very low rather than the original bliz view of opening up a broad range of pets seen as viable hunter partners.
This was my input to Ghostcrawler.
Hunter pet effectiveness in pvp.
Pets die so fast and easily in pvp battlegrounds that I have found the best pet for pvp is the tenacity pet.
Tenacity allows more health and armor and so more survivability. Tenacity pets can withstand more than two or three hits in pvp battlegrounds unlike ferocity or cunning pets. So I spec a tenacity pet ignoring all damage options and going only for all survivability options and now can keep a pet in battlegrounds alive more of the time.
Cunning pets are worthless to me in either pvp or pve for my style of play. Cunning pets just die in pvp and do not do enough damage in pve.
Ferocity pets have value in pvp because ferocity pets can self-rez and self-heal. So in 2×2 or 3×3 arena pvp a ferocity pet can be useful. But again, in bg situations ferocity pets die too fast to be preferred. If there are many players, then most pets simply die almost instantly. Tenacity pets are better for dps in pve and somewhat good for pvp if the pvp is small.
The single major deterrent to using most pets is the cooldown on their special ability. If it is more than 10 seconds, then that pet is never an option for me considering all the pets that have 10 seconds or less on their special abilities.
I love how people underestimate cunning pets. It lights a warm fire under my heart to know that not to many people will be using the pets I use.
I’ll head over in a bit and leave my input.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14910062176&sid=1 here is my post
Let’s see. I have been using a Gorilla ever since I leveled high enough to get one. I was using a Gorilla even when my guildioes were telling me how terrible a pet they were. I personally think they were one of the best pets before 3.0, and they still are one of the best. Thunderstomp’s AoE can actually cause a lot of damage. i can get it to crit for over 1900 now. So, in that regard, i would like to think that I am a trend setter, not a trend follower. I used Gorillas whn everybody said thy sucked. They just didn;t know how to use them.
Cunning Pets…. if you spend your points in your talent tree right, they can be pretty nice. a Pet spider was my first pet, and i still have my Zarakh spider…and still use it. Wolverine Bite is an amazing ability. It hits for huuuge crits. I have done over 3000 damage with WB, and it only has a 10 second cooldown. Dragonhawk are also kinda nice.
Ferocious…. I only have one ferocious pet. I use a pet carrion bird for all instances and raids. It does great dps and the guild’s tanks really appreciate his Demoralizing Screetch AP debuff. More survivability for the tanks. I perosanlly am not into cats, so I don;t use them.
What i think….. I actually liked it better back pre-3.0 wheni could teach a pet what i wantd it to know. I would guarentee you my pet Slime would be suped up so i could use him for instances and raids. I miss having the freedom of making a pet how i want it. Huntrs are very cookie cutter right now, and that i sad to me. Dps is the only way you can spec right now. Gone are the days when you could get nearly 100% dodge and successfully tank stuff with a hunter. Naturally, i did that with my per Gorilla to help keep aggro on me. (and be ready to spam the mend pet buttton and tell the priest to be ready to heal the pet too). i don’t know. guesssI just hate having to use a pet in a way i have n freedo of choosing. Whether it be letting the hunter pick the tree the pet can use, or changing it to where hunters can teach a pet to be a tank, or dps, or a trckster, i don;t really care. i would just like to PICK the way i use my pets, not have it forcd on me the way a pet has to be used.
Pet balance certainly hasn’t fallen off my radar :)
well one idea i had that would help all pets and maybe even tenacity, is that make growl itself an aoe move that has a range of maybe 10 yds and casts just like the old growl then having gorillas with their own stomp that does damage and more threat or instead of all that tenacity tree the growl talent that increses threat also makes it aoe increasing range with talent points, this way gorillas keep their traditional stomp and makes tenacity more viable as tanks
curious what u guys think just a couple ideas that have crossed my mind
I think that with the heavy (in my opinion) nerf to bm, the prime focus on pets was taken off, because for most hunters now they are useless. Just like the surv hunters that let their pets die every pull.
“Oh well, only 200 dps out of my 1200.” seems to be the opinion around hunters on my server.
Personally, I keep my wolf as my raid/heroic pet, some pretty ones I use for show a banked worm waiting for bm to become useful again, and an empty slot for grabbing what ever suits my fancy at the time. The last one normally becomes my solo pet for the day. Recently I was trying out moths and cats, but I’m considering tying out bats next. At least my inability to just keep one pet makes it so I know a lot about the different species and categories.
I totally agree with all previous posters that the tenacity tree, if it meant to be a viable tanking pet tree should be given some form of AOE aggro grabber. Obviously this would need to be on a short cooldown (10 secs or 7 perhaps)
Now whether that means changing gorilla’s slightly i wouldnt be too sure.. I like the gorilla’s talent as is, and I dont think it would need to be changed at all to be honest… Perhaps the other pets need to be looked into more.
I would much prefer to see an AOE talent near the high end of the talent tree (perhaps changing the tenacity tree tier 5 talent “Taunt” to be something along the lines of a warriors thunderclap or to a lesser extent challenging shout)
Having an ability like this would open up a few doors for other tenacity pets.. The Crocolisk for instance would benefit hugely in this situation (Maybe needs cooldown on Bad Attitude dropped slightly also to make usable though)
Other Tenacity pets such as Bears and Rhino’s aren’t too far behind either and again would benefit hugely from an improved “Taunt”
But currently tenacity pets find it hard to keep a groups aggro especially when you have to start mend pet.
Having a talent to give us the AOE threat would also still allow the pets to remain solid solo tanking pets.. ie Turn off “Taunt” autocast when you want to pull and kill one mob at a time..
Thats my 2c anyways and hope to hear others feelings on the matter..
Thanks,
Jaeger
If someone could throw my comment over onto the WOW Forum for me that would be great – cant comment with my EU account :(
Keeping pets alive is a big issue even for a non bm even with the nerf they dish out pretty decent damage buffed that was the problem imo not they do too much damage they just recieve too many buff mods in raids; they scale too much in large groups. The big killer nerf is how it changed attack speed this changes crit proc rate and other dependent talents for a bm. New bosses are increasingly pet unfriendly makeing the pet management really painful due to low base health.
most pets would benefit from a buff to general hit points but tenacity pets just need more hp and -crit buffs for me to take them on a raid.
Out of a dungeon my ferocity pet can cope with most situations so there is no need for a low dps pet again.
As far as pvp goes pets are pretty poor they are all crit dependant and with high res kit they dont proc enough and the small steady numbers of a pet are just shrugged of plate users from their damage mitigation.
I think the general base of what we have atm is great but most of the pet skills are poor or have bad cooldowns taking the unique feel of a pet choice away from actual game play.
I would like to see tenacity pets with a sunder type ability and resilience mitigation in the talent tree. Sure wolverine bite is nice but the cooldown slap is a joke.
The tank pets need a bigger boost to the – crit skill and boosted health to absorb the spiky damage they see atm.
I find if I stack health and armour on my ferocity pet it can tank as well if not better than mt tenacity because of its regen talents.
There are not anough benefits to cunning and tenacity for me to take them out of the stable atm. I think this is the general opinion of most hunters on my server as well.
I dont want to see op pets but I would like to see more benifits to chosing non ferocity and the loss of dps
If we could chose with tree to go down with our pets you would see a huge diversity of pets my favorite answer for opening up the stables.
I have several words.
1.Tenacity pets need to be balanced, like Nirvana said. Currently Gorillas are too outstanding. My wish is to promote other pets, not to nerf Gorillas.
2.Windserpent’s ability “lightning breath” is a plane damage ability and not fits in Utility category. My suggestion is either moving them into Ferocity tree, or adding some effect (stun, shock, whatever) in Lightning Breath in addition to natural damage.
3.A Carrion Bird has no access to Carrion Feeder ability, I feel odd.
I have to agree with Thunderstomp tho- no not nerfing gorilla’s, but making it a Talent in tenacity pet trees. I mean lets face it, unfortunately hands down, if you want to hold the aggro of alot of creatures you can’t just use a Rhino or a Hydralisk or a Boar- it’s fine when it’s solo pve play but if your pet is tanking an instance and it’s more than one boss. Hoo boy.
I agree with Stranger partly too- maybe switch Hyena’s out of DPS since their ability is more Cunning, and put Windserpents in Ferocity in their place; everyone is mostly happy, yes?
Stranger that’s because CB’s are in ferocity, not cunning. If you’re suggesting switching them around with BoP’s then that’s partly fine with me.
Maybe also fix Mend Pet- make it stackable like Lifebloom or something? Or give us another pet heal, cause I wouldn’t mind letting my friends have a chance to dps too instead of one having to fall back to healer position all the time.
Anyways getting back to the point slightly; Blizzard should understand, like a few players have posted, PVP pets depend on the situation, the hunter and the timing. I find it annoying to pvp with Jupiter [Spirit Beast] because not only of the prowl bug, but the fact Jupiter uses SS on targets that it should know are immune. [WG] then there is also the fact that my pet can and also does die a bit to fast. Cunning pets are alright but I feel just to fragile sometimes. But Tenacity? Oh you get the right pet and it’s just win.
Punting players with Rhino is fun :v
and realise I was going off topic. Hmm.
Anyways getting back to my first point, I agree Tank pets desperately need an AOE on par with Thunderstomp, I don’t want to use a gorilla just because it’s the only AoE tank pet. I wouldn’t mind if Taunt was changed- or even possibly Guard Dog, where it not only boosts threat and generates happiness, but boosts the ability to generate threat to targets in XX yards- this is only a suggestion as I realise this could be bad if like say your pet is Off Tanking something and you don’t want to pull aggro off the MT.
But something, anything, allowing the pet to still generate enough aggro to keep the mobs off the healers if the MT dies- Atleast long enough for the MT to be ressed and possibly prevent a wipe.
“I really wish that “PvE” didn’t automatically equal “raiding” in every Ghostcrawler post I’ve seen recently”
100% agree. i’m totally loving solo content at the moment, and last time i checked that counted as PVE, and actually BM spec makes solo or small group PVE much easier, and more enjoyable.
I’ve made about a million posts on this issue all over the (European) forums over the last couple months, still can’t believe it’s not been noticed.
Thunderstomp has an insanely short cooldown, hits unlimited targets in all directions, has higher tooltip damage than all other pet abilities (including ferocity) and is the only ability to generate additional threat (and a lot of it). The gorilla is way too overpowered as a tanking pet, and I’m not asking for a nerf to it but a buff to ALL other tanking pets, so that they are at least half-viable choice in return for giving up the “Gorilladin”.
EDITING ABOVE POST
Can hunters from the American Forums please make some threads on the G”orilladin vs other Tenacity pets” issue on American Forums? Here in europe we hardly get any attention and it’s one issue that desperately needs to get noticed.
Thx
Vish
If I am not mistaken, Demoralizing Screetch also hits unliminted targets and causes aggro on each target hit. Sure, it doesn’t cause the damage or quite as much aggro that Thunderstomp does, but carrion Birds are Ferocity pets and they already do a ton of damage. My point: “and is the only ability to generate additional threat” is a false statement. This is exactly one of the reasons why my dps pet is a carrion bird.
I wouldn’t mind some tweaking in the tank tree. Maybe change Guarddog to a general “all attacks do increased threat” and Taunt do an aoe growl instead. I agree that some pets’ abilities should be evaluated to see if they fit in their current tree correctly — ex: wind serpent has a direct damage attack and is in cunning, while wasp does a debuff and is in ferocity.
I’d also love for any of my pets to be able to hold agro in solo PvE. I refuse to get a gorilla, and none of my pets hold agro unless I just auto shot and don’t get any crits — and I’m BM spec with crappy gear! I do hit my anti-cower macro when the pet comes out, and I keep cower on the bar where I can see it, so I’m pretty sure they aren’t cowering out of turn.
Gorrillas are fine! Leave them alone.
Bears have a multi target damage, give it a threat boost. Simple.
Crocs have a milti target damage (if they are hit by the creature.) Make it “attacks all creatures in x range for a moderate amount of additonal threat”. Simple.
Worms do an armor reduction spit. Make it spit upto 3 targets like a bear.
Etc. . . Etc. . . Etc. . .
The obvious draw back? This makes them less useful in raids as the AoE can get you into problems. (I know, why is it always raids? but it has to be said) Simply put there has to be some “pidgon-holeing” because PvP is so different from PvE solo play, which is so different from Raids. While a Gorilla’s TS works great for solo, it can land you in a world of problems in a raid when the tanks can’t hold aggro on all the mobs cause my pet had one before he died and then the healer died then one tank died and oh crap we wiped. Hence the reason that wasps and worms don’t have the AoE so that they are viable PvE (raid) armor reducers.
So yes there will always be some “Pidgon-holeing”. One pet cannot be a “do it all”. For this reason, I’d like to see hunter pets be moved to the non-combat pet/mount UI, which the stable master can sell us “Pet carriers” (Slots) for.
With tenacity talents points in the boosted growl, none of my Tenacity pets are having problems with holding aggro. (even on multiple mobs, if I do a bit of micro management before I open fire) My ferocity ones don’t do bad if I give them more than a melee and a growl before I open fire. And since I simply don’t PvP with my hunter, Cunning pets I’ve not found much use for (although my white eagle is pretty to look at and holds PvE aggro about like a ferocity pet)
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=14697495943&postId=149089511610&sid=1#104
Things have really slowed down since I hit bed last night, if you would like to bring up things that you’ve conjured about Tenacity now, I believe all that can be said about Cunning has been said. Now would be the time to post about Gorillas, tanking, and the like. Please give specific examples of what you’d like to see. Formal, orderly discussions are what get noticed by Ghostcrawler. If you could help out please, it would be greatly appreciated.
Ouch, I think I just got beaten to a pulp by a spam filter.
I agree that bears are very good, since swipe now hits unlimited targets. It will take a little time to fidget to get all the enemies in front of the bear for it to hit, but still good. needs a threat increase though to hold.
Crocolisks are good at keeping aggro with their ability, but the issue is that if they lose aggro on multiple mobs they’re gonna have a very hard time getting it back.
Demoralizing Screech is one of a number of AoE abilities, but I would hardly describe it as a group tanking ability. It’s ferocity and high damage so that’s one thing. But it doesn’t generate as much threat as thunderstomp, plus I doubt the carrion bird can hold out as long as any tenacity pets against groups of relative level.
I’m not complaining about the gorilla, I think it is perfect as it is. I’m complaining that for pet tanking, especially group tanking, choices are very limited. Not to mention that comparing the tenacity pets proves that some are unbalanced, bearing in mind all the talk Blizzard have been doing about balancing both hunter specs and ferocity/cunning pets.
Tenacity needs some love !!
I think the pets don’t need to have their current abilities AOE-proofed.. they just need to have an extra talent/ability that allows for AOE aggro gain IF DESIRED…
Most obvious change would be to modify the tier 5 Taunt to become an AOE Taunt and that way it could be toggled/used when needed… Growl may need a tiny buff as a result of removing Taunt’s old purpose but Growl works pretty well currently.. aslong as the Hunter manages his/her own threat levels… Cower auto-cast needs to be fixed but thats an ongoing thing…
IMO Taunt in its current state is not worth being a tier 5 talent.. and is of very limited use currently…
That way Gorillas would still keep TS which would still do aoe damage, and all other pets keep their abilities… swipe, bad attitude etc.. but all tenacity pets can then manage group aggro better whenever needed.
Blizzard are apparently planning on adding a 6th tier of talents as well, likely to come in 3.1
The purpose is to buff BM and make the 51pt talent better.
Heya Vish…
Do you have a link to that info?
Thanks,
JB
“For example, we are likely to add additional pet talents that increase dps so that the 4 bonus points from BM 51 will inflate player dps overall. ”
Link: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/14578748409-hunter-bm-and-mm-are-broken.html
5th post down (4th post by Ghostcrawler).
“We think the ultimate solution to feedback about BM-51 is just to add more talents to the pet talent trees so that the bonus 4 talent points can improve pet dps by an amount equivalent to the cost of the hunter talent point. The exotic pets themselves would be more of window-dressing, perhaps with more utility from some of their special abilities. ”
Link: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/28/14318704718-hunter-feedback-blizzard-is-looking-for.html
Blizzard’s Response, last paragraph.
Possibly but unlikely the 6th tier could require 51pt BM talent. But just adding a 6th tier could be interesting, since the 5th tier is all 1pt abilities, the whole trees could face a potential shake-up.
id to like to see the tenacity pets getting an aoe taunt or attack, id like my warpstalker to be able to hold aggro on 2-3 mobs and not just the one its focusing on.
Also i think the croc skill bad attitude should be changed some. make it affect everything around it instead of just the target/targets already hitting it. or be removed and given something else if there was such and aoe skill in the talent tree.
Ferosious pets…i think their talent tree is just fine. self healing and free rez is great.
Cunning…Wolverine bite, getting out of stunns, carrion feeder, mana regen. they all are nice…but..they are so soft.
Personally, I think that tenacity is doing ok. Sure you have an inordinate amount of people using gorillas, but that doesnt change the fact that there are other t pets that are viable. Armor reduction is one of them, and its raid-safe! Another one that get overlooked alot is the turtle.
The turtle is hands down the best damage soaker in the game, and its not just raid-safe, its raid-friendly. The problem is, that while the turtle can off tank a mob or a ‘lieutenant’ (blizz term for boss minion) there simply isnt much of a need for it, just like there isnt a need for any cc.
Hopefully when the content gets harder, and cc is needed again, people will appreciate my turtle.
The turtle is my favourite pet, hands down. I have always wanted one, but never had one for more than a day. When the pet chances came in 3.0.2 I thought that could all change, but it didn’t.
Please dont reply to me saying “you can take a turtle, it’s a viable pet and nothing’s wrong with it”, I know this. Except that The only difference between any tenacity pet is the family skill. What’s the point in having turtle shield if the turtle can’t even properly aggro groups?
You put him on one for a couple growls, then onto another target, then another, then another. All this time swapped from the first target the turtle is generating ZERO threat/second on any target except it’s current target.
This was my original point earlier on. There are only a very few pets who can generate threat on more than 1 mob at the same time, and even fewer of these are tenacity pets. This makes the gorilla outweigh other tenacity pets in GENERATING THREAT, i’m talking about generating threat, not handling the damage.
For me at the moment, my biggest beef is not being able to effectively use my Ghost Wolf in raids (yes, I said it. But its been bugging me for a while now =[ {though this could also apply to 5/10 man content as well}) Currently, Ferocious Howl only increases attack power by a set amount (bout 130 or so, if i remember correctly). While this is excellent, this ability is ALWAYS overwritten by a warrior’s battle shout or a paladin’s blessing of might, so the focus used to put that buff up in the first place is essentially wasted. I usually end up bringing my wasp to raids because we often dont have a druid bringing in faerie fire.
I’d love to see a way to make this ability stack with other buffs, or have it changed to something else to make my poor wolf more raid viable (I still use him for soloing though :D). Possibly increasing attack power by a percentage… OH!! Or possibly increasing a players HIGHEST STAT (str/agi/stam), by a small percentage (2-3%). Any good change to make this happen would be excellent.
I actually agree with this. Blizzard said somewhere that a number of hunter pet abilities were there to give parties and raids buffs that were unavailable due to the turnout of classes to said raid. However, how many groups DON’T have a warrior OR a paladin?
I have always thought that if you go for the 51 points in BM, that the exotic pets should always be the best of their class. It kinda holds true with the devilsaur, but I am not too sure about the other exotics. I mean is a chimera all that much better then a hyena? I just think if you make the investment, you should get a little, not overpowered, but a little bang for the buck
‘Also i think the croc skill bad attitude should be changed some. make it affect everything around it instead of just the target/targets already hitting it. or be removed and given something else if there was such and aoe skill in the talent tree.’
No leave Bad Attitude Alone- it’s perfect; but Crocolisks need additional help in keeping threat, even if it’s on a long CD if it’s enough to boost threat generated by the Crocolisk it’s enough to keep mobs on it as I found by itself it generates enough threat to cover mend pet. So more threat + the damage threat would possibly equal being able to not just have to focus on the lone mob the Crocolisk is Omnoming.
And to Rudda: It’s not that Gorilla’s are OP it’s the fact most people are being forced to choose them as lets face it, unless you use Eyes of the Beast on a bear, you’re not gonna see the same ammount of aggro managing capabilities on any tenacity pet for multiple mobs.
As long as GC talks about PvP and raid only, I don’t care anymore!
Time to play some other game again – maybe, WoW will be in a better shape 6 months down the road… but I won’t hold my breath *eg*.
My issue with Blizz. I am a MM hunter. I understand pet balance and pet utility. They say the scorpid’s stacking poison was unbalanced in certain situations. Fix those certain situations. For my needs of the tenacity pet, the utility is the ability to stay alive. In 5/10 man content taking a cat or other ferocity pet into an instance, if they take agro ever, for any reason, they are dead in seconds. Sure there is cower, but before the scorpid nerf, there never had to be that need. The scorpid was the one tenacity pet that allowed good single target damage and had the key ability to survive taking agro. Beyond that it was also a tiny, non-flying, non-flapping, damage dealer who really shined in long fights. The stacking of poison was worthless in short fights, but in marathon fights, I would rather have the scorpid than any other pet. He has become a useless pet now like the spider pre 3.0. Each pet of each tree should fill a certain need. The gorilla fits the need of a tenacity pet with multi target good damage, good threat. But what if you only want a tenacity pet with good damage on one target. That damage should be better than what is distributed out to multiple targets. That is what stacking is about. Without stacking, the scorpid is a mediocre tenacity pet that fits no need. Let the scorpid shine again. Fix the problems, fix the balance. For PvP I’ll keep the wasp, for soloing, I’ll keep the carrion bird. Happy with both the others, please fix the last and fill the empty hole you left.
Blork:
The Scorpid nerf was needed. When a scorpid outdps’s a cat (previously) and the only ferocity pet to outdps it was Devilsaur, something needed to be done. Should it have more tankability? Yes. But I don’t believe Scorpids need to do more DPS then a cat unless they’re in the ferocity tree. It sounds like you want the Scorpid to do more dps so it can hold aggro, which shouldn’t be the case (but perhaps I’m misunderstanding you).
Tenacity pets are not meant to hold aggro based upon dps or doing “great” damage. Sure, tenacity pets do good damage, but you’re not going to see Cat numbers pour out of Scorpid attacks.
Personally, I think Tenacity pets overall need some more aggro-generating talents added to their tree. Other than Guard Dog & Taunt, they don’t generate enough aggro (in my opinion) for a tree that is built upon tanking/soloing. Perhaps they should add a talent that increases threat generated by pet attacks by 3%/6%/9% (like how they have Spiked Collar, perhaps it should be a taunt collar or something XD). I think then you would see alot more variety in tank-pet choices.
I am going to brainstorm a bit and am not looking for flames, I’m just throwing out a suggestion. Protection specced warriors have a talent called vigilance. Vigilance is placed on another in the party and that character takes 3% less damage and transfers 10% of their threat to the warrior. This is a great talent for warriors and could be watered down a bit for our pets to improve their ability to hold aggro. The game mechanics are already in place for vigilance so the code changes may not be too extensive.
I would like to see a quest for a “collar of vigilance” that can be placed on a specific pet (not all of them in your stable). The collar could fit on the pet like a piece of armor and after the initial quest would grant 1% damage reduction to the pets owner (helps all hunter specs)and transfers 3% of the hunter’s threat to the pet. Later quests might upgrade the collar to have slots for pet specific gems that further specialize and customize the pet performance.
Hunter collars were talked about before 3.0.2 and they were liked by practically anyone who heard about it. Although Blizzard never said a word about it. Somehow the talk of it got lost in the new pet talents and family skills.
However, I think Collars would be a nice addition. It could be the pet’s version of glyphs, except it doesnt have to affect pet abilities. Could be stats or something, just a little bit to help customise or help our pets.
I need more posters! I love the ideas that are flowing throughout my thread right now. Someone mentioned how the scorpid could be improved with some very good thoughts put into it, something that I’ve rarely seen and I doubt I would have thought of it myself! :)
In my recent experiences with PVP (which I hadn’t done since I was in the 30s, and now am at 70), the best pets for me to use are ones from the Ferocity tree, more specifically, the Core Hounds. My core hound has been a very big asset to my Honor skirmishes as of late.
I’ve found that my two Tenacity pets — the Tundra Crawler and the Wooly Gray Rhino — are horrible at PVP; dying very quickly and dealing little damage. My fourth pet, the Winterskorn Worg, deals moderate damage, but dies too quickly as well. But, then again, that is just my experiences.
I haven’t used a Cunning pet in a PVP situation, but from guild-mates that do use them, they are pretty good, as well, moreso Chimaeras and Spiders than any other pet.
I’m just going to throw in a word about one pet family I love that is sidelined at the moment: Woofs (okay, wolves).
The problem is that Ferocious Howl is not a very desirable ability in groups, because the degree to which Battle Shout and Blessing of Might outshine it is so great. In 25 person raids, you are virtually guaranteed not to need the buff. In 10 person raids you are unlikely to see a paladin buff Kings instead of BoM for phys dps for such a significant AP sacrifice. A group with no Paladins and a Warrior might make use of it I suppose, but there’s not the same kind of CD based/buff replacement advantage that Wasps or Worms provide.
Granted Wolves can still be handy solo or in groups, but they seem shut out of raids and I think their situation could be improved. At face value, a full BS style pet buff might be too strong however, and making a raid wide stackable AP boost, even if very small, runs the danger of making them “necessary”. Perhaps they need a different buff effect?
The more that I read up on it, the more I believe it was possible the wrong idea to go out and nerf bm, because singly they were ok, but maybe change some of the mechanics. Not everyone is doing 10+ raids, and bm doesn’t have to be the ‘easy’ spec either. Possibly up the way the hunter’s own stats effect pets, so that new 80 bm hunters still have a challenge in blues.
But for the greater good, we need to look outside of the box, and make sure that trying to change one aspect of the game doesn’t have other players throwing themselves on their swords.
Here is the way i would fix pets.
Let the hunter pick which tree he wants his pet to use. I am gonna use Gorillas just for arguments sake.
If you want a tanking Gorilla, you can choose the tenacity tree. then, somehwre in the tenacity tree, make it so the family ability (Thunderstomp) does additional damage.
If you want a dps Gorilla, you can choose the Ferocity tree. Somewhere in th ferocity tree, mak it so the family ability can generate extra damage.
Finally, if you want a cunning Gorilla, you can choose the Cunning tree. Then, somewhere in th cunning tree, you can give the family ability some kind of movement impairing ability (shock/daze).
The problem i see withthis… pets are alreadt bugged, so i could see a ton of bug issues with this.
The second problem i se, and deffinately the most probable… Blizz being too lazy to do somethig like this. They say they wanna “fix” pets, but arn’t really willing to do anything drastic to help the problem. Andf yes, this would be an even more drastic switch.
On one final note… Dragonhawks should be in Frocity group. their Firebreath has no special abilty and is no longer AoE, so how can that be considered cunniong. Sound like flat out dps to me.
PS
Crocs as a whole are kind of a joke. 1 minute cool down for 15 secs worth of damage just doesn’t cut it. If they wanna make the pets more “realistic” give crocs a DEATHROLL. Crocs do that in real life. That would be more practical than Bad Attitude. Let’s be honst, if you get attacked in real life by a “cat” you will probably live and have no problems, if a croc get ahold of you and can deathroll, you are gonna lose a body part, at best. So,i see crocs as more of a dps pet.
I had a thought a long time ago. It’s probably NEVER going to happen, and I wouldn’t balem it. But I’ll share…
Remove Bestial Wrath and The Beast Within
“All hunters scream”
Change Master’s Call to remove all movement impairing effects and stuns, and makes you immune (basically BW and TBW together as a non-talent, available to all specs, but without the damage increase or cost reduction). Damage increases can be added to the BM tree.
Now many hunters will be thinking right now “lol you moron, removing key talents for the spec, shut up”. But just hear me out. BM has been considered EZMODE and BW/TBW has been considered the IWIN button. Changing this and combining it into a non-talented ability, scaled to avoid it becoming OP, could sort this all out. It frees up TWO 1-point talent abilities on the 7th and 9th tiers, which can then be replaced with abilities to make the BM tree much more in depth and interesting to play. Obviously these would have to relate to pets in some way, shape or form. But it would be nice to get an ability in that tree that hunters can use without having to be completely reliant on pets. I’m making no suggestions because I want this “lolz” idea to be imagined from the point of making the BM tree more challenging, not from the point of “these new talents are x, y and z…”
PvP PvP PvP
Pets are all but worthless in PvP.
Hunters are all but worthless in PvP.
I like my pets, I have fun playing with my pets, but they are pretty much ignored by even cloth wearers. A pet can harm a cloth wearer if you catch him, OOM, and already heavily damaged. A pet can try and try against a healthy mage and barely touch him, even with me firing steadily at the mage.
PvP is all about DAMAGE. Cunning and Tenacity pets can stay in the stable.
DK ghouls do better in PvP than hunter pets.
Shaman spirit dogs rip me apart while my pet barely annoys the shaman.
Don’t even mention lock pets and the damage they do.
PvP is about burst damage and fast damage and right now hunters are at the bottom of that totem pole.
I am constantly astonished by the things that GC says. I can only surmise from his comments that he doesn’t play a hunter. If he does, he’s using it to figure out just how much more artfully he can nerf hunters.
I defy anyone at Blizzard to play an average geared hunter with a ferocity pet in an average AB against pretty much other average players and tell me that hunters are fine, let alone Arenas. Heck, you can even use Loque’Nahak, I do.
Your only strategy as a hunter is to try to stay out of the game, and when the opportunity arises, i.e. some DK is already killing a target, do a /assist.
This tends to piss off the other players, they call you “kill stealer” and does very little for your moral as a hunter.
Fix pets.
Fix hunters.
Get rid of Tenacity and Cunning.
Let us just train pets as we will.
Give BM hunters a real 51 point talent and let all hunters tame exotic beasts.
Get rid of the stupid pet leveling crap. It’s dumb role playing that serves no purpose. It just wastes my time. Any pet I tame should immediately go to my level.
I just had to point out the new release content for Hunters in 3.1.
” * Consumable ammunition has been removed from the game. Arrows and bullets no longer stack, but are not consumed. Ranged attack speed bonus gained from quivers and ammo bags will be preserved in a different capacity.
* A new tier of hunter pet talents have been added. In particular, this allows Beastmaster hunters to improve their damage per second (DPS) with their 51 point talent.
* Hunting Party – this talent has been reduced to 3 ranks and also grants a passive bonus to the hunter.
* Piercing Shots – this talent has been changed. Your Aimed, Steady and Chimera Shots cause the target to bleed for 10/20/30% of damage dealt for 8 sec.
* Sniper Training – this talent has been changed. After standing still for 6 sec, you gain a 2/4/6% damage bonus to Steady, Aimed and Explosive Shot.
* We are also looking to add additional trap functionality to Survival.”
The only thing I care about is the new pet tier specifically aimed for BM 51 pt utility. Yes. Yes please. This is something the 51 pt should’ve been.
1. Let us pick ANY tree for a pet to have, not just one of the three assigned by family.
2. Buff pets huge in PvP. Put in “Pet Armor” that hunters can buy with Honor and Marks that beefs pet armor way up.
EDIT to above:
Pet armor would only work in BG’s, just like the special bandages and such.
One thing that has only seems to have been mentioned in passing by several posters is the CD time on many pets’ special abilities. Bad Attitude, Snatch, Savage Rend, etc. all have TOO LONG of a cooldown. Let’s face it, if the cool down is much longer than 10 seconds it’s essentially useless. I’d like to see all pets special abilities set to the same CD time.
The only problems with the Croc, are that Bad Attitude only affects mobs that are attcking the croc, and it’s long cooldown. Those are the only reasons I use a Gorilla over the Croc… That and the fact that the Gorilla stands silently next to you, while the Croc demonstrates his breathing difficulties.
If you’re going to round up a number of mobs with a Croc, turn off Bad Attitude, then turn it back on once you have all the mobs gathered up and attacking it. You may also want to turn off the Focus Dump and hit Kill Command, before turning on Bad Attitude. Turn the Focus Dump back on after Bad Attitude triggers. It will hold threat with no problem, and will out dps a Gorilla.
The biggest bonus of the Croc over the Gorilla, is that Thunderstomp is Nature damage, anything immune to Nature will just laugh at your Gorilla. Bad Attitude is Physical, and there isn’t much around immune to that.
/Boggle « The Mystic Hunter - February 6th, 2009 @ 11:36 am UTC
[...] there’s this on mania’s blog. Feedback on every pet family and how they compare to each other? /begins [...]
My problem is even with a misdirect/multi-shot to start the fight, my only pet to hold AoE aggro off a heal is the Gorrilla (even though it’s only 78). My 80 Slime-alisk doesn’t seem to do the job. All my other pets (80 Ghost Saber, Chimera, and Wasp) fail on single target aggro holding if a heal gets involved.
I think the other AoE pets (not just tenacity) need to be buffed to allow them to hold AoE aggro tank better. Maybe make Growl a threat multiplier on pets rather than a fixed threat gain.
And Tenacity pet taunt it pretty much useless as a pet tanking tool. It’s cooldown is longer than even untalented Beastial Wrath as it stands. And once the taunt occurs there’s no way to maintain the aggro lead (except for Crocolisks) because unlike normal tanks there is no advantage to threat generation just because they have aggro.
I’m not completely sure if this is entirely relevant, but I noticed an annoyance with the Tallstrider’s Dust Cloud that I kinda wish they’d fix…
That being that the dust cloud tends to aggro critters and otherwise neutral things. The most glaring example of this, that I’ve seen, was on the Tuskarr’s baby-stealing daily. My Tallstrider would activate dust cloud and would aggro the Wolvar pups, causing them to attack the poor bird, alongside the den mother.
I’ve also noticed occasions wherein, if the pet is on defensive, that it would chase down and kill a nearby critter, like a rat or beetle, after it had finished combat with the primary mob.
I dunno if something like this has been said before, due to the vast amount of input on this topic already, but in my humble opinion, id be interested in seeing how things would work if they opened up all three trees with each pet. for instance, a gorilla you could spec ferocity… and get some extra dps for whatever with it, or a cat that could tank…. it would certainly make things interesting, and could allow a hunter and their pet a more interesting experience. I know some wont agree with it because of the whole “a tank pet cant dps….” kinda deal, but I dunno, it just seems to me like it would be a neat way to have more fun and assure that the notion of cookie cutter pets and builds are a way of the past. and if not opening all the trees, maybe completely redesigning them… for instance, make them more like the hunter tree itself with more class specific moves that what we have now. for an example, take a wasp. give it a ferocity talent tree, but in its tree it gets lets say an improved sting, that not only armor mitigates, but causes a reaction to the sting doing x amount of dmg over time. it prolly sounds stupid, but im shooting from the hip here. /shrug
I know it’s more of a pet-peeve of mine (pun definitely intended), but I’ve had a pet owl since I first tamed it on Teldrassil at lvl 10. I liked to do everything with him, but as of 3.0 owls are classified as birds of prey are are thus moved into the cunning talent set. However, vultures and ravens got moved into the ferocity talent set.
Now, it may just be me but when I think of Bird of Prey, I think of something more… ferocious than a vulture or raven. To say that a buzzard can take down an eagle is false in real life, and if Blizz tries to base WoW in real life at all, I think something needs to happen here. This is true for snatch and screech too. Carrion birds snatch up dead things (shiny objects in the case of ravens) and take them away. Owls and eagles strike their prey quickly and efficiently, crippling if not killing them… much like screech. Furthermore, in the Cunning tree lies the talent… Carrion Feeder! It’s counterintuitive that Birds of Prey and not Carrion Birds have access to that.
I realize that this may seem like one of the most trivial points to be made about WoW, but GC asked for feedback on pets and here is some. Coming from a long-time hunter who is very attentive to detail, this has been bugging me since 3.0 hit.
What I would like to see done is just a switch of the two families. Straight across. All Birds of Prey become Carrion Birds and vice versa. The raven skin is a toss up to Blizz b/c I think they have it shared with a Hawk (Bird of Prey). I think it would be a very sensible move for Blizz to make this change.
I am using a plain strider currently (I have had the clutch mother for about 3 years and found she finally came into her own with the pet changes). I leveled her up and found shes bad to the bone now ;)
I have found shes almost as good as the gorilla for keeping group agro. The dust up that he does for mobs to miss is great. Its odd but she stays alive longer too due to the heal she does on himself. I found in some cases, my gorilla just drops to fast even with me healing him.
I would think as a tanking (tenacity) pet they would stay alive longer.
I suggested (shortly after the topic came up) two things: one, make roar of recovery function more like a mana tide totem (with necessary buffs to the totem or nerfs to the roar to make them similar in CD and mana restored) being party-wide. My other suggestion was tree swapping. Example: why are wind serpents and dragonhawks cunning pets? Neither of their abilities do anything other than straight-up damage so I suggested moving them to ferocity and move the hyena and tallstrider to cunning.
I was looking for a new pet on Petopia when i came accross this discussion, and have read all the posts. I’m not the most knoledgable hunter out there, and opinions are just that, opinions, but i have some suggestions on the general problems mentioned throughout the topic.
1. pet skills: To make the wolf not a pet topped by battle shout or blessing or might, make furious howl a skill that increases damage taken for enemies, god knows lots of mobs have it and a raid type of debuff would be useful, couple amour reduction with increased damaged for scorpids to counter the stack reduction, and make dust cloud deal minor damage to hold threat for tall striders. Also give crocolisks the ability to hit the nearest 5 enemies every 5 seconds for bad attitude instead of the current skill, allows easier aggro control. right there are 3-4 new ways to hold aggro, making gorillas not the only aggro pet out there. also, i agree chimeras are like hyenas, therefore, froststorm should freeze for 3 seconds, then daze for several seconds,giving a exotic pet better skills and distinguishing the chimera.
2. Pet Trees: lots of peple say that theres not enough aggro, or pets die too much, etc. so heres what i think: make the turtle invulnerable for a short time, and take its 50% damge negated and replace improved cower with it, having growl a 10 yard radious around the pet would be good, and intercept generate aggro. also, since ferocity pets have lick you wounds, shorten the CD on it and switch bloodthirsty with owls focus on cunning. After all, owls focus is like the SV lock and load skill, more suited to dps, while a boosted bloodthirsty cunning pets would survive longer.
3. The bigger picture: make exotic pets tameable by all hunters, and have a skill for BM to raise dps or armour pircing for thier pets, make mend pet an instant heal i.e short casting time then instant heal instead of healing time. Finally (and a couple people have mentioned it) make all pet trees available for every pet, but with one difference: even if we do that, it wont restore the hunters freedom and control over thier pet manegment and raising. To trully accomplish that, we need to have each pet’s special skill be part of a slot that can be overwritten with another skill (that the pet could reasonably learn i.e a scorpid couldn’t lean a bears swipe, but could learn a snakes poisen spit, or a worms acid spit) and give pets talent points every 2-3 lvls instead of 4 so they could be more versatile, and maybe duel pec in 2 trees.
P.S i disagree with the idea of getting rid of pet lvling, blizzard put in the 5 lvl max difference so a lvl 12 wouldnt have to be trained to 70 or 80, but hunters will still not abandon an pet they grow bored of, because having to train a new pet another 5 lvls is a bit time consuming. Also, part of the joy of being a hunter is watching your pet grow. Take away that, and you might as well give them random names like lock pets or DK ghouls.
I am not sure if anyone has really discussed this in the thread, but what I want to see in pets is one that lives during raid. We get more of our damage from our companions then anyone else; and yet in raids pets drop all the time; and so does our dps. No other class straight up loses a depended upon source of damage; they aren’t prevented from casting a spell except in cases where something is immune. I know some locks use their pets for some dps, but I don’t think the dependency is as great. Plus locks have an ability where they can sac their demon to gain a bonus. This is something I wouldn’t mind getting for hunters; maybe not sac the pet but tied into dismiss. All locks have to do is reconjure a demon after they sac it; no different then resummon pet after dismissal. That way, when we are fighting a boss that a pet can’t live on; we can trade it for a buff.
If any more people could post on the first link it would be appreciated
I think Growl needs some work :S My pets can’t pull aggro, other then my serpent Hailfire, even with Cower off. It’s tough, since I’m in BM and not very good at close-range. It makes a difference, wether you’re a lvl. 27 noob like me or a lvl. 80 person doing some Raid. Pets need better aggro. Also, mine drops dead in instances sometimes, leaving me in a position of vunerability. Pets need more buffs :S Or at least armor :S
I am surprised at a lot of the above comments.
Threat is not an issue on single target mobs unless you are trying to take on an elite or heroic mob. The reason is (and I am a mix of 10/25naxx so well geared) my pet doesnt hold aggro for a whole fight when I burst damage but with the damage output the mob is dead before it gets close.
The danger is when the pet (that is not a gorilla) is trying to fight multiple mobs in pve I can either single nuke and risk aggro or aoe nuke and always gain aggro. For most mobs in pve it is easy for Barrage specced MM to just drop the barrage on yourself and let mobs hit you than worry about pet aggro (which I agree is wrong and defeats the point of the pet).
Some other comments are true… pets are dead in seconds in the pvp that Ive been to.
Even in pve (raiding) pets can die too easily in some encounters (e.g. Heigan)
My suggestions/thoughts (and I would appreciate if someone can pass them on to US forums as Im EU here) – Just to point out these suggestions are not all cumulative.. some are variations on the same theme to give different options
Pet survivability in pvp needs dramatic improvement
Pet survivability in pve needs minor improvement for ferocity/cunning and greater for tenacity. Buffed raid Health for dps pets should be around 20-22k and for Tenacity pets should be around 30k.
Avoidance should work on encounter damage with area effects that arent considered aoe (e.g. Heigan Lava, Grobbulus Clouds etc)
Pet damage mitigation should be higher for pets but especially Tenacity pets i.e. Increased armour, Increased dodge (suggestion the talents – AotM/AotDH for dodge, Aspect Mastery & Survival Instincts for damage reduction – are carried over to the pet much like Hit% is)
Tenacity pets should be capable of tanking heroics and OT in raids (some of the above mitigation is to facilitate this)
Mend Pet increased – Pets only generally benefit from aoe heals. In the rest of the cases it is up to a hunter to heal the pet. The ticks on this are no where near high or fast enough to keep a pet alive if (a) it draws aggro in heroics/raids (b) it takes aoe/encounter damage on some raid bosses
Pets should not benefit from buffs but scale with hunter gear/stats better instead. (There must be some coding already in place as pets dont get Thaddius charge debuff)
Aspect of the Beast V1.1 Ranged damage -50% (like AotV), Tanking stats of pet increased e.g. +100% Armour, +75% health, reduces chance to be critically hit by melee by 6%, reduces duration of stun and snare by 50%, bonus dodge (the damage reduction brings the hunter down to a tanks level of damage whilst giving them a tanking option)
Aspect of the Beast V2.1 Melee damage improvement for pet & hunter e.g. +50% or 100% melee damage, cannot use ranged weapon
Aspect of the Beast V1.2/2.2 As per v1.1/2.1 but instead of a traditional Aspect it becomes a Spell with a cooldown or duration. It could act like the Warlock Demon Sacrifice spell but instead it provides the hunter with the bonuses as per v1.1 if a tenacity pet is sacrificed or v1.2 if a ferocity/cunning pet is sacrificed. (i.e. something like +200% armour +50% health, +24% dodge (instead of IAotM))
With any of the versions of above I would recommend removing the aspect from general hunter abilities (cos I doubt many hunters use it anyway) and put it as 31, 41 or 51 point BM talent. This will allow hunters a different role such as melee or tanking using pet/themeselves and also gives a viable reason for Dual Spec to actually have value for a hunter. My preference is V1.1/1.2 although for the pet lovers here I would have thought V1.1 would their choice.
Pet Collars/Armour – Pets could be given armour slots or a slot for collars. Alternatively Collars could be a hunter trinket OR if the ammo slot & quiver goes completely then could be used like Librams etc
These items would buff the pets abilities/stats. Initially they could be slotted into boss loot tables or just as token vendor items.
Gemstones could be created to improve pet abilites/stats and hunters could slot those at the expense of their own stats. The programming is there as early Tier items used to have pet buffs.
If anyone thinks I have any valid ideas I would be happy for you to post them to the appropriate US Blizz suggestion forums as I am from the EU.
Cheers
the best way to fix the pet balance would be make all the trees availible to each pet and modify current aoe for pets under fericity give there ability a dps bump to single targets not multiple( a raid buffed fericity gorilla dumping aoe would just be op) for the cunning tree give the famly abilty an added stun/slow or cast reduction this should contain both in the tree and be selectible witch you prefer.
and for the tenacity tree grant an ability that cases the family skill to hit as an aoe with a threat modifyer
this would require some family skill changes as a baseline none speced such as turtle shell sheild would have to also do damage of offer a debuff,
any pet that currently has an aoe ability would have to be single target unless speced for tanking, and bad attitude would have to be offensive not defensive,
if blizz would do this im sure we would see alot more variaty in pet choices accross the board, turtles doing 1500 dps in raid, or tallstriders helping to kite dks in ab, and moths tanking 4 lvl 80 elites sounds cool to me
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