After a short absence (that merely made our hearts grow fonder), Blizzard poster Ghostcrawler has once again popped up on the WotLK Beta Hunter forum. This time she had some information to share about the pet abilities Charge and Growl.
First, in response to feedback about the decision to remove Charge from the boar family, Ghostcrawler posted:
We actually debated this issue quite a bit. In the end it came down to a call about whether it was more fitting to boars to keep Charge or whether it was more fitting for the boar to be a tanking pet. The tanking pets were all going to get Intervene instead of Charge, since it let them be more useful as an OT, and we didn’t think it was worth the cost of making changes or exceptions to that design just to preserve boars Charging.
In the end, we decided that boars are feared because they are tough. They have leathery skin, a stubborn disposition and had a reputation for fighting on long after their wounds should have killed them. In short, they felt like a tank. We tried to keep the feeling of the old Charge with the bonus component to Gore.
It was very difficult to come up with a whole new system for pets without losing any aspect of the old system that might be important to players. We are genuinely sorry though if there is a change you don’t like.
That’s what I like about Ghostcrawler — she’s able to communicate not just the end result, but also the level of thought that went into the decision so that it doesn’t just feel like a random stab in the dark by Blizzard.
Speaking of which, I really liked Ghostcralwer’s response to a thread about the difficulty of keeping aggro on your pet titled Growl Is Weak:
Growl sucks. We’ll fix it.
Truly, what else needs to be said?
I know how you feel. I’ve loved Ghostcrawler ever since I saw ‘them’ post on the forums, just speaks like someone you know, ya know lol.
‘Growl sucks. We’ll fix it’
Yay, short and simple
That’s too bad as I just recently tamed a boar for the first time. I love the charge part of his attack! Are boars the only ones who have this ability currently?
Are there any hunters in beta who have piggies to test the new Gore? SgtPork & I’d like to hear how it compares to our current Charge . . .
Fran-
Boars are the only ones with Charge right now.
I can, however, see what Ghostcrawler is getting at. It is a trade-off as to which gets Charge and which is the Tank. I’m still baffled by some of the choices they made, but I can understand.
Maybe charge will make it’s way into the tenacity or cunning tree’s then? (if it isn’t already)
Bobo-
I’m not in the Beta yet; however, the on paper numbers are a bit interesting. Dash lasts 16 seconds. Gore will now have a 10 second cooldown. Gore will get at least one double damage hit right after Dash goes into effect. IF your (generalized your here) boar can get enough focus to ride out that ten second cooldown, your boar can do it twice in one fight. Together, Dash and Gore will take 45 focus. That jumps to 70 if it can be done twice. It can be done :)
“We actually debated this issue quite a bit. In the end it came down to a call about whether it was more fitting to boars to keep Charge or whether it was more fitting for the boar to be a tanking pet. The tanking pets were all going to get Intervene instead of Charge, since it let them be more useful as an OT, and we didn’t think it was worth the cost of making changes or exceptions to that design just to preserve boars Charging.”
Like everyone else, I appreciate Ghostcrawler taking the time to update the community as to their reasoning behind this, but I felt that reasoning to be based on a flawed premise, namely if it has to be a choice between having charge (a way of quickly entering combat with a one time boost) and being a tank, then why remove charge from boars while leaving teleport on warpstalkers?
“But that would be ridiculous!” you say? No moreso than swiping a boar’s signature move. No, I’ve really tried to get behind this one, but no matter which way I look at it this just seems like a dumb call with paper-thin justification; I have no problem with them giving charge to ferocity pets, however taking it from boars just makes them seem generic. Gore shmore – boars were meant to charge.
And working it into dash doesn’t cut it for me – the boar charge is supposed to be fast, direct, and jarring – not an extended sprint as if it was something fleetfooted.
I’ve stood by Blizz for most things even the spirit wolf nerf (and yes I was planning on taming one for myself when it happened), but not this. Like 1 or 2 other upcoming changes I think this is just a bad idea that will remain in place because it’s being championed by someone at Blizz who noone wants to challenge…
Does anyone know if anyone can log into the “WotLK (US-English)” version of the forums or is that just for people with a beta account? I’d love to post some comments about it on the wow site.
I think Growl sucks on certain pets. Once gorwl goes off, some pets just don;t have the dps to hold aggro. Gaining aggro and holding aggro are two completely different things. I think the problem is: tanking pets are the ones who really need to hold aggro. but, they don;t do great dps. therefor, thay don;t hold aggro as well. I have noticed that my tanking pets never help aggro, and that’s why I never used them. The funny thing is, my pet spider (Zarakh), is by far the best aggro holding pet I have ever used. People ask why I continue to use a pet spider at level 39, andthat is exactly what I tell them. It hold aggro better than anything else, and it doesn’t have a lot of abilites to spend skill points on, so i can load up on Great Stamina and Natural Armor. Once WOTLK comes out though, who knows how this will change… or if it will change at all.
@scott
You can view the forums but you must have an account to post a reply
WTB [The Ability for Bears to Charge] — seen more bears charge at people than boars in the real world!
I would rather see bear, boars & etc get charge rather than interviene.
LoL, I can understand peoples complaints, but I’ve never tamed a boar, nor do I really even want to, so it doesn’t really affect me. Too bad for those that have though.
@10:
You’re right about that – it will be interesting to see whether any of the upcoming tenacity talents will change things but I suspect we will continue to see “tank” pets having aggro problems after release of WotLK.
I wouldn’t mind holding back a bit on firepower while a bear/turtle/whatever built up aggro (like a warrior applying sunders), but so far it doesn’t seem like it really matters what you do – no matter how much of a “lead” your bear has, he is still going to drop aggro after the first or second shot rotation.
Which is too bad – it would be nice to think that a BM hunter with tenacity pet could manage to tank *at least in the same ballpark* as feral druids if not quite as well i.e. well enough for a 3-4 man quest or short instance run.
Ghostcrawler is great. It feels like our pets have a voice now! :D
I think overall it sounds like hunter pets got a huge boost, even if other things needed to be toned down or tweaked. I’m itchy to have the new system instead of what’s on live…
DPS isn’t everything when it comes to aggro management. It helps, yes…and is why currently turtles are about useless despite being the toughest thing around. However, many pet abilities generate additional threat: Screech is notable for this, and Thunderstomp. Lightning Breath does not cause as much threat as Fire Breath (for whatever reason, I dunno why), Claw causes more threat than Bite…
Even with Growl at its currently gimpy-ish state (though GC says they’re fixing it, woot!) I expect things like a bear’s Swipe to generate a -lot- of threat, stacking on top of whatever Growl manages to do.
Also, YOU as a hunter are responsible for not overtaking your pet’s threat. Someone above mentioned a ‘rotation’ and overtaking aggro… honestly… rotations are for instances (where your pet isn’t likely to be in a tank role). If you’re just grinding or questing, there’s really no need to be even worrying about maximizing your DPS because whatever you’re shooting is going to go down in five autoshots anyway. I never rotate when soloing stuff… I lob Serpent sting on the target, then AS it to death with maybe an Arcane tossed in if it’s got a buff up. It’s so not worth stressing about… and you almost NEVER drag aggro to yourself, and this coming from someone that uses ‘non-cutting edge’ pets like spiders and carrion birds. Just kick back, put on some tunes, and roll methodically over your foe like the hail of death you are.
No offense intended to anyone, but complaining about something you haven’t even tested yet is a bit on the childish side. And if you have tested it, then keep in mind that this is, as Mania and Nimizar love to point out, beta. Things may still change.
Now to address something directly, Scott, you can’t compare a boars charge to a warp stalkers warp for two reasons. A boars charge has an imobilize AND an attack power increase, while warp is just that, a tele port with a 50% dodge increase on next attack. Second reason, boars had gore AND charge, basically two unique abilities to every other families one. They had to make a decision of which family ability to keep, and which to toss out. Ravagers got ravage, thus losing gore, and it was decided that charge would be a much, much more attractive ability for DPS pets, simple as that. That left boars with gore, which in all honesty is a much better tanking skill then charge. Its an every ten/seven second additional damage attack, which does even more in dash. For beast masters, there are very few moments when dash won’t be up when gore is.
All in all, considering the massive amounts of changes our pets are undergoing, complaining about something like this sounds to me like serving some one dinner on a gold platter, and having them complain about the color.
Personal note, I’d trade in warp for a poisonous bite in a heart beat.
I’ll be honest here, after reading the Charge thread, I seriously want to punch that Galathir guy in the face. Many times. I have rarely seen such a whinny emo poster as this guy. Just reading his posts makes him look like a spoiled brat who totaly refuse to take no for an answer.
I admit that innitially I was saddened by the loss of Charge on Boars, but with Intervene in there, and reading GC’s post, I can see why Blizzard did this. Also, Galathir keeps crying about Charge being a tanking tool since warriors have it. While it might look like it has some merit at first, I found it strange, like there was something in my subcounsious telling me it was wrong. So I went to check out the warrior’s Charge on wowhead.
“Charge Rank 1
8 – 25 yd rangeInstant 15 sec cooldown
Requires Battle Stance
Charge an enemy, generate 9 rage, and stun it for 1 sec. Cannot be used in combat. ”
Oh hey! Look at that nice little line in there!
Requires Battle Stance
Sweet! So the guy is talking about a BATTLE Stance skill like it’s a major tanking skill. Now I don’t know much about warrior tanking tactics, but I’ve rarely seen them using it at higher levels. Don’t they lose some rage when switching stances? I also heard some mobs are immune to it and it can cause some weird problems. Anyway, I’ve always viewed Charge as more of an aggressive move rather than a tanking move. Like a “I’m getting in yer face to beat the crap out of ya” thing.
I saw Scott mentioned the Warp Stalker’s Warp skill up there. I think this might also be another reason as to why Blizzard decided to not give tanking pets Charge. since the Warp Stalker is a tanking pet, having both Warp and Charge would be wothless. Warp has a 5 yard range activation over Charge, and a shorter cooldown, meaning that having both on the pet, Charge would never be used at all. If they where to give Charge to the tanking pets, they’d have to change the Warp Stalker into either a DPS pet or a utility pet. Something that they probably didn’t want.
Yes, it is sad that Boars wont have Charge anymore, but hey, I’m looking forward to see Carrion Birds, Cats, Devilsaurs, Hyenas, Moths, Raptors , Tallstriders and Wolves use it. Especially the dinos. Oh my God that is one scary thing to see coming at you! At least all pets will have Dash/Dive now, so I think it is a fari trade off.
Hey, I have heard that “caster” pets are going away. I know this is about Growl, and holding aggro, but it is also the popular thread right now. So, I am gonna put it here. So, when are “casters” going away? I would also kinda like to know: if you have a caster when the change takes place, willyour pet stay a caster or will it automatically become a base pet? Anybody know anythign about this. I have recently started experimenting with casters, and I want to make sure I try everything I want to try before this takes place. So, any info aboutt he subject would be great.
Palladiamors
You are too right. Aggro does have more detail to it than just growl. That’s kinda why i tried every kind of pet there was before picking my spider as my main. You said you use them too, and I think that is great. Maybe it’s just my playing style, but I don;t think I have EVER pulled aggro form my spider. LOL That is why I keep my “boring, non-skilled” spider as my main. I am sure somebody who plays differntly than me would completely disagree, and I think that is one of the great things about being a hunter…. everybody plays them different. Just wanna give you kudos for going into detail… which I am not good at. I thinkyo0ur post will help a lot of people out.
Everybody Else…. if you are having a trouble holding aggro, try taming a different pet. Sometimes the most plain looking pet will be the one for you. It doesn’t always have to be that really cool, ultr-rare skin, ultra-rare spawn critter. Those aren’t any better than a normal skin, and sometimes they just don’t fit your playing style. Change things up a little and you may just find your perfect pet. Look at me: I made an alt and I am trying “caster” pets. lol
*Laughs* Dweezil, I use a little bit of everything. I sort of randomly pick a third pet to play with, and skills or stats be darned. If you play well with your pet, it shouldn’t ever be an issue. And for some reason, everyone talking about pulling aggro off of your pet….. feign death is our best friend. BEST friend. You never talk about it, though. Odd. With proper usage of feign death and the for some reason hated disengage you shouldn’t ever take more then an attack or two, even when your fighting three or four mobs. Sometimes all it takes is a little bit of foresight and some reflexes, as well as knowing what tools to use and when to use them.
Actually, it was me, not Palladia, with the spider. But you’re right. A lot of people just read that ‘such and such is teh bezt’… and they take that and never find out if another one would be better suited for their playstyle.
For example, windserpents. I KNOW people say they’re phat dps, but I can’t bloody use them. They feel awkward, they’re always out of focus, they’re hard to feed, and they don’t seem to hold aggro for me worth beans. Obviously other people have better luck, but… there you go.
Your build has a lot to do with it. Are you a crithunter? Steady dps? Survival? Where did you put your points? What’s your gear, your hit rating? The numbers on your pet are only a sliver of the whole picture.
Nachtwulf
Well,I am currently BM, but I am seriously considering SV when Wrath comes ot. lol I know, it’s terrible changig mid-stream. But, at this point, I am not really interested in any of the “exotic” pets coming with the expansion, so i may get hwat i want from BM and then start on SV to get what I want theer too. lol But you are right about people wanting to use what they are told is a great pet. My main character’s main pet is a spider and I have a scorpid stabled. I just did an alt that i level 14 with a dragonhawk as his main (yeah, I made the trip up from RF at that level, and I know “casters supposedly suck). Right now the Dragonhawk is rockin’ for me at level 14. The tricky part is keeping him rockin once he starts leveling. I guess my point is, if I would have listened everybody and NOT gotten the Dragonhawk, I wouldn’t be having the fun I am having with it right now. Using what is fun to you is how it should be. not using what everybody else uses.
BETA USERS: if you happen tosee this, and if you have a little time to spare,i would love to know if a critter has become tamable. I would like to know if Sunblade Dragonhawk (70 Elite, Sunwell Plateau) is tamable in Beta. Thanks a ton if you check. See,I told you I was having a ton of fun with the Dragonhawk.
Last post, I said I made the trip form RF… that was a typo… should have been IF (Ironforge). Soory if I confused anybody.
There were several comments made above, that I would like to address. Your right DPS isn’t a factor for tanking pets. I honestly laugh whenever a prot warrior attacks me, his dmg sucks even with mongoose on his weapon. Before I joined a raiding guild I was in greens/blues & beat a full tier 4 prot warrior in full epic that had mongoose. Granted I earned his respect after that fight & joined his guild. His dmg on me a hunter in cruddy gear was laughable. Its not about the dps, its about the tps or Threat Per Second. Which for us DPS ppl in raids isn’t usually a factor b/c yes our spells have some threat, but not as much as the warrior tanking skills, this is how they keep aggro from all of us while in a raid. The hard part for a warrior is maximizing your tps so that you stay way above everyone else, & its up to the DPS ppl to know which of their skills cause the most threat b/c they can cause a raid wipe if their throwing out to much tps. A lot of our tps comes from our crits, & pets. The reason why claw has more threat then bite is b/c bite has a cooldown claw does not.
Boars have always been the better aggro holding pet for non bm hunters b/c of Charge. I’m not going to say that I agree with them taking it away from boars b/c its a fun skill, & it kept aggro on the pet for a long time. Usually if the boar was able to charge the target, then I could maximize dps on it, & kill it just as I pulled it off my boar. Intervene though I’m not sure how it will work for pets but for warriors it allows them to charge at a friendly player, blocking the next attack. I’ll actually see them use this skill in raids to get to the front of the raid group before a pull or to escape if a fight is going badly, they’ll intervene a player that is in front of them until & hopefully make it out alive.
I can’t remember what the fel guard’s charge skill is if its intercept or intervene now, but if boars got intercept which can be used in combat to charge a combative target, then I would be ok with the loss of charge. Even now since I love my cats them getting charge is great.