Hortus Says Growl + Charge Aggro is a Bug

Terrible news for boar owners! In all the investigation over pet aggro in Patch 2.4, it was determined that the great extra-aggro effect of boar’s Charge ability followed by a Growl is a bug and will be removed in a future patch.

Here is Hortus on the WoW Bug report forum:

I have confirmed with the developers that Boar’s growl ability getting such a large bonus to attack power based on charge is a bug. Growl should only benefit from the hunter’s attack power and get no benefit from buffs to the pet’s attack power.

Expect this to be changed in a future patch. If you disagree with this change please post about it in the suggestions or class forums.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?forumId=11122&sid=1

Note that the thread Hortus posted in is locked, but I do believe we should follow his suggestion and post our thoughts on this in the Suggestions and Hunter forms.

Potential silver lining: perhaps fixing this bug will help prompt them to look at threat generation across all pet families.

[edit] Incidentally, you can find a list of 2.4 Known Issues on the WoW Bug Report forum as well.

85 thoughts on “Hortus Says Growl + Charge Aggro is a Bug

  1. Seidouyumi

    I appologize in advance for the fact that this post is going to be rather blunt in nature, and I applogize for my bad spelling. It is, for the most part, addressed to everyone who’s panicing over the changes to Boars and Hunters. In the words of a great book- DON’T PANIC!

    I have gotten tired of everyone who talks of shelving a beloved pet, or deleting a high level hunter because of what are often minor changes to the way Hunters opperate. Until the change is official and final, keep your boar and keep your Hunter. Find out if the change is going to be a major issue in how you play. Imagine if you get rid of that beloved and playful Boar only to find out that the change they are making is part of a much larger alteration in how the pets work, and that this change is for the better. Imagine deleting a high level Hunter only to find out that they are going to be more viable than ever.

    I have six hunters and I got tired of the way in which they all seemed to be almost cookie cutter. I asked people if there were other ways to viably level a Hunter and they all told me no. I made the decision to find out if this was true. I even decided to take Rukia (Lynx on Onnarashii) out into the wild without Growl and see how things worked for her. What I found is, you do not need Growl. In fact, Rukia is more viable than ever. I let her hold aggro long enough to keep the mob in one spot until I burn them down pretty far. I hit them with Concussive shot and slow them down. Rarely, the mob hits me. It’s an old trick I learned playing an Afflicion Specc, Succubus Minioned Warlock.

    Ultimately, we can adapt and change how we play. In fact, staying in one spot all the time gets boring, and it gets really boring when you have six hunters. I know that some of you, like Varsar, are going to wait and see, and maybe play other characters for a while, and I understand that. It is hard to adapt how you play when they’re changing things every few days. I just have a few words of warning. Don’t do anything you might regret later. And, if you wait, don’t wait too long. I did that on my Rogue a long time ago, and by the time I came back to her it was very hard to adapt. Too many changes had been made to how Rogues opperated for me to get the feel of her again without leveling up another Rogue.

    Just, be patient, wait and see, play your Hunters and see how the future goes.

  2. Varsar

    Seidouyumi,

    Not only do I agree with you about gorilla, but I think they are, for PvE(pre raiding) my favorite pet. For PvP they are weak. As a Nelf hunter I am all about my Cats for PvP.

    I find fighting 1 mob, even a red mob, kinda boring on my BM hunter. I had grabbed the Gorilla to run lower level instances for friends/guildies, but in leveling him realized how great he was at taking on 2-3 mobs, then as i got a hang of it I started taking on 3-4 mobs. Once I hit the 50′s I starting taking on 4-6 mobs(at level). It really (for me) raised the level of enjoyment on my hunter.

    As far as the boar issue, it blows what Blizzard does regularly to hunters. But the Charge+growl was SO much better than anything else out there (hell it’s better than growl +intimidate) that people should have realized they’d do something about it at some point. But the timing has me wondering if they just can’t get it back to the way it was with the changes the didn’t make *wink*. I mean if they are really trying to tell us they didn’t know about it until now, what they should really tell us is that they NEVER look at pets. Because that is the only way it wasn’t noticed before now.

  3. Varsar

    Seidouyumi,

    Once again a reasonable minded post. ANYONE that deletes a high level hunter (and maybe any hunter) over the charge+growl is simply looking for the easiest game play imaginable. Now I do agree it’s been a lot lately and I will not delete my hunter as I’ve put 63 levels into him. Which is why i am just waiting. I run my hunter for a day or 2 after every change I read about just to see how it works (and will keep doing so).

  4. CyberKnight

    Seems this discussion has drifted far afield, but I wanted to address one point.

    Folks that are deleting their toons aren’t doing so because of growl+charge. They’re doing it because of Blizzard’s apparent long term ignorance about how a Hunter plays. I’m by no means a high end raiding or PvPing hunter, but I’ve seen my share of both. In the time I’ve been in the game, they have made some pretty bonehead errors/oversights/poor choices with the hunter class. What you’re seeing is a combination of people getting bored with the game and frustrated with Blizzard. It’s actually a cycle that repeats in all MMOs.

  5. Ghanur

    @Seidouyumi:
    I didn’t deleted the hunter, I canceled the account – there’s a big difference!
    Not giving them my money is the only language those boneheads at Blizzard understand!

    Blizzard behaves more and more like a Mr. McQuaid at Verant (until he was fired by SOE): “there are no bugs”, “no, it was not meant to be that way” (3 years into the game), “it’s always the fault of the customers”, yaddayaddayadda…

    Hunter as a class was the last one implemented into the game, at realese the class was not even half finished. While every other class got improvements from day one, hunters got nothing – beside nerfs.

    As a hunter I know how to adopt to change – since the class changed from patch to patch.

    I don’t care about PvP (WoW has the worst implementation of it), I don’t care about high-end raiding (did my share back in EQ), I care about the fun a game offers (WoW offers none anymore).

    The one big problem with our class is: all bots are hunters!
    Instead of fighting the problem at it’s source, they kill the class.
    The next class on the list will be: Shamans – the new bot programs seem to work fine with it.

  6. Seidouyumi

    Varsar- thank you. I am probably going to grab another gorilla once Mwindaji is high enough in level.

    Ghanur- One out of ten million is not much of a statement. I decided to do something a bit crazy here and actually looked up the patch notes from every patch in which the Hunter has been in existence. In all honesty, what I saw was hardly a huge nerf. Except for the great big pet normilization that occurred, the bulk of the changes have actually benifited Hunters rather than hurt them. A lot of the benifits are tiny little things and not huge massive alterations.

    I’ve been playing this game for a long time now and I’m not big on PvP or Raiding; however, for me, two years in the same game is unusual. I’ve heard Hunters complain about Growl and Pet Aggro now for two and a half years. I’m sorry to say this, but quite frankly, relying upon your pet all the time isn’t much fun. It is just a way to have an easy game to play.

    Not to be totally brutal, but from the sounds of it, you were just looking for a reason to quit the game rather than play. I don’t begrudge you this. Everyone gets bored of games eventually. MMORPG’s have a lifespan of, at max, eight years so far. WoW is now in its fourth year. While I do not agree with Cyberknight’s assessment of the class, I do have to agree with the fact that people are getting bored with the game.

    As for Blizzard not trying to put an end to the bots at the source, they are. Numerous people have been sued for selling bots to get around the game’s code. They do a lot to trackdown and stop gold farmers. The unfortunate reality is that trying to do this is like trying to stop grass from growing. The innate need for people to have instant gratification, their sheer greed, and their desire to be able to win at everything means that bots and gold farmers are cropping up faster than summer showers in Georgia.

    Oh yes, and Hunters have not been majorly patched the same way Mages, Warriors, and Paladins have. In fact, from just a quick glance over the patches, those three classes have recieved more attention, and more nerfs and buffs, than Hunters.

  7. Seidouyumi

    I am going to say this, and then probably not post again. I doubt that I’m ever going to win an arguement about this subject since most people I have run into have an entrenched attitude about the issue. Being reasonable just does not work when people have an entrenched view on a given issue, and it is often easier to see conspiricies than to look at facts. As an Historian, I’ve been fighting this battle for so long it is hardly funny. Try an explain to someone all the reasons why the Mafia did not kill Kennedy, and they will refuse to believe until they are in their grave simply because it is easier to believe in a conspiricy than it is to believe in the vagracies of reality. It is easier to believe that someone had Kennedy killed than that a lone nut is responsble.

    I think, on the subject of Hunters and Growl/Charge and all the changes I’ve seen in Hunters, this is the last time I will speak on this subject. I will continue to help out with other questions though :) And discuss Gorillas more with Varsar.

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  9. Seidouyumi

    I wanted to quickly post an appology to the readers. I am sorry that I got a little too harsh yesterday. I have a low tolerence for the whole ‘OMG Blizzard is nerfing us again, they must have their heads in the sand’ routine. Blizzard is doing what they feel is best. The one thing I will fault them upon is explaining why they make a given change.

    I remember the uproar over the changes to Paladins made a while back where a Holy Paladin could not get 100% mana return on a critical heal. For a long time, no one gave me a decent explanation as to why this was so. Well, the reason why is simple. Priests were being excluded from groups because they had to mana up more often than Paladins and raid/group leaders didn’t want ‘to waist the time’ on them. In other words, it was unfair to Priests how the Paladins could keep going, but they couldn’t, and with the new Healadin gear that’s out there, the talent that allowed this was no longer really relavent. It would have saved a lot of anger and trouble if Blizzard had explained its rational with the change.

    For those still reading this by now, I may have found the actual bug. I was on Mwindaji, my lvl 15 Hunter last night with her Crocolisk Gretchen (who is no longer with us, alas, I got tired of her sinus troubles) and I kept pulling aggro in certain situations. Namely, I was right up close to the mob in question. Either the mob had attacked me first and I had to pull back to just outside the dead zone; I got too close before initiating combat, or they wandered in much closer after I started combat. There use to be a range at which the Hunter could pull aggro from their pet if they were too close, and it seems that this has widened significantly. The only way I couldn’t pull aggro was to be pretty far away. If I can confirm this, or anyone else can, I’ll post it to the bugs forum.

  10. CyberKnight

    If you consider that harsh, you must avoid the official forums like the plague. ;)

    I find it hard to buy into the ‘other classes were overshadowed by us’ argument though. The Mana regen issue and the pet aggro issue slow me down a touch while soloing, but that’s about it. In groups/raids, I’ve got mana regen options, be it potions/elixirs/oils, or other classes helping me out. Warlocks, Feral Druids, and Rogues (ok should admit the only one I have first hand experience with is the druid) in equivalent gear can do the little to no downtime grinding thing just as well.

    I don’t see any malice in it, but Blizzard just seems to miss things when it comes to the hunter class, then plead ignorance after the fact. Recent examples: The “run the completely wrong way instead of to the back arc” pet nonsense, which they somehow managed to fix even though I missed them ever saying that they managed to reproduce it (when every Kara keyed hunter could show them a half dozen places where it happened). Spirit based mana regen fouling us up, right after they buffed Viper sting to supposedly help with our mana issues. Ok, so that one is sort of apples and oranges, in combat vs out of combat regen are different animals. And of course this topic, boars getting dinged with removal of a beneficial ‘bug’ that’s been around for years and well known in the community.

    Interesting theory on the aggro range thing. I’ll have to play with that some when I get a chance. I’ve done little but dailies since 2.4 hit, and those mobs die entirely too fast for me to worry much about pulling aggro off my cat.

    All said, I don’t want people to get the wrong impression. I enjoy my hunter, so much so that playing my Druid and Mage (also 70s) a difficult change of gears. I’m not planning on dropping WoW or my hunter anytime soon.

  11. Amewen

    I have only been playing this game since last Sept, and my hunter is only up to a 67, I have also started other chars to see what they are like (druid, shaman, rogue, priest), but the hunter is still my favorite. I have noticed strange things when the patches come out, but being unfamiliar with how it was over a year ago, I just roll with the changes. I don’t do a lot of PVP, raiding, BG, or instances, so I am a little clueless on that. I have a new hunter at 13 with a boar for fun, and my 67 has a pridewatcher cat, and a raptor from Blades edge (for fun). I love the game, and all the diversity it offers people.

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  13. Seidouyumi

    Cyberknight, thank you for checking that out. I’ve been doing a bit of that today too. I’ve been working on my MM Hunter with her Cat Rukia. I turned Rukia’s Growl off and found that this happened. If the Mob was higher in level than me, Rukia lost aggro after about half a bar’s health on the mob. It did this almost all the time, at maximum distance. If I was closer, it broke faster. If the mob was equal level to me, at maximum range, the mob would break towards me about half the time. That amount changed the closer I got to the mob. If the mob was lower level then me, Rukia could hold aggro and rarely did the mob make a break for me.

    The weird one was that a Raptor that bypassed Gretchen (the Tallstrider) and came after one of my other Hunters before any shots were fired. I sent in Gretchen to attack and the Raptor just went after the Hunter instead, and the Hunter wasn’t near enough to cause aggro.

    Believe it or not, I try to avoid the WoW forums for the most part.

    As for Blizzard, I sometimes think that the problem with Blizzard is disconnect between one division and another. I saw a lot of it when I was working in a College. The other possibility about some of these issues is that the testers are, well, testing and not playing. I’ve noticed that it can be hard to replicate a bug or an error when you’re looking for it, but when you’re not looking for it, it crops up all the time.

  14. Elaith

    I dont know about the Charge+Growl bug, I havnt seen it.
    What i have seen is a total nerf of charge… ive tried killing many different mobs, all the ones on sunwell isle and Belfs, erethrals in netherstorm and ive found that charge has been much reduced, in benefit AND Proc!

    With my Level 70 boar vs L68-70 mobs im finding that charge can fail up to half the time, with my mostly blue/green equipped hunter (260 base dps, 21% crit) pulling aggro off the pet within 3-4 shots.

    Plus the ‘pet moving slowly to monster’ bug is STILL there… how long has it been since the bug was first reported? patch 2.3?

  15. Seidouyumi

    Elaith-

    The slow move bug is one that they’ve been battling fr a long, long time. They manage to fix it and it pops up again and again. About a year ago I had the same problem with a long gone Troll Hunter.

    Charge isn’t the only thing that’s been effective. I’ve had a few problems with things being resisted and having nothing to do with Charge. I’ve also had Growl and Lightning Breath resisted a bit more often than usual.

    In news about the aggro zone, I’ve been continuing to monitor it and finding that it seems to be across the other hunters I have. The only pets that don’t seem to have it happen commonly are the ones that front load a lot of aggro like my wind serpent.

  16. Gort

    I’m glad someone else noticed that Charge changed at Patch 2.3. Charge has been very inconsistant for me since patch 2.3 and yet I have never seen anyone else mention it til now. Before 2.3 Porky was like a rocket. After 2.3 he kind of moseyed (sp?) toward the mob and charged the last couple of yards. Now he has trouble deciding which direction he wants to go. Sort of amusing in an annoying kind of way???

  17. Seidouyumi

    Gort-

    Charge has always been related to distance from target. I’ve found that, if my Hunter Sakebi stands at maximum range, Tonton runs up to a certain distance and then charges in and attacks. However, if I’m standing at, say, twenty game yards from target, Tonton charges right away. The moseying along seems to be a problem with almost all pets (Hunter and Warlock) and is an old problem that’s crept back up again.

    However, I’ve had Charge resisted a bit more often than before, as well as everything else.

  18. Varsar

    Seidouyumi,

    Your theory about aggro Zone is as good as any and i gave it a quick try last night, to me as a BM hunter I didn’t notice a difference, I either pulled aggro at not, right up close or max range, it took about the same maybe a 1 shot difference, but that is most likely a matter of crits, even if not 1 shot isn’t that bad

    On another note I still seem to have trouble holding aggro on multiple mobs even with my mighty ThumpThump (my gorilla)

  19. Seidouyumi

    Varsar-

    Thanks for checking that out. The reason why I posted this here rather than on the Bug forum was to try and get more input. Now I’m starting to wonder if there’s been a massive snafu in the system. Either that, or they’re just enjoying watching us get distracted and scrambling around to find out what’s going on :p

    I’ll keep trying, and if anyone else has any information, please post either positive or negative to this so that we can, possibly, find out what’s going on. Of course, it might just fix itself without us ever knowing.

  20. Varsar

    Not to get on the jump on Blizzard’s back bandwagon but “Of course, it might just fix itself without us ever knowing.” is kinda their style

  21. Seidouyumi

    Varsar-

    My aunt worked in computers for a long time. Sometimes they would go to fix something in the code and it would cause a totally unrelated effect. I know, weird. I sometimes think that computer code is slightly alive.

  22. Varsar

    Seidouyumi,

    I get that, but they could like other games I’ve played simply pony up to it and say hey we goofed and fixed it. I don’t hold it to much against them it’s just their way, but I think I have a higher standard is all.

  23. Hilz

    I Absolutely HATE the fact that they changed this i am a level 63 dwarf hunter and I’ve had my trusty Boar since 48 and I had always kept him because nothing could generate enough threat, my boar used to generate about 3-4k at the beginning, now he only generates 500-700 at the most and if i even use arcane shot once i take the Aggro instantly, if i ever get to raiding I will never be able to take an elite beating on me, thats what pets are supposed to do, take the damage that a hunter cant and taking the charge + growl away makes it impossible to accomplish that!! I feel that they should have left it as it was and I’m sorry but if it took them that long to figure out something was wrong with then that shows that someone isn’t paying attention.

  24. webcricket

    I’m kind of surprised I haven’t seen this, and I realize it’s somewhat indirectly related to the charge/growl issue, but has anyone proposed something like the warrior stance modifications to aggro for ‘tank’ style pets?

    I mean, it seems to me that if a pet is supposed to be a tank and therefore does less damage but has greater defense, their threat generation scaling up would be perfectly in tune with their role. It’s not like an excess of tanks exist (on any server I play, at least), nor likely that most players would be willing to swap out a hunter for a traditional tank anyway (there are still plenty of people who insist “Pallys heal” as if they weren’t viable otherwise), so it doesn’t really threaten other classes in game play.

    As for the ‘Blizzard hates hunters’ and ‘this was a bug – but it was always this way’ things, didn’t they eliminate the dead zone awhile back and say that it was (and always had been) a bug? Anything they didn’t intend IS a bug, whether they elect to exploit it or fix it.

    Final note: hunters aren’t alone – every class gets thrown around. I’ve been frost on my mage since before it was cool (pardon the pun), I play every class and sporadically read on all of them. Viability changes for everything, methods change for everything, and everyone feels unjustly treated periodically. Imagine how torn the intelligent Ret pallies must have felt when their pleas for ‘utility NOT dps’ in order to become raid-worthy fell on deaf ears and they got dps? I know, there’s still a lot of havering on the details of that, but everyone accepts that ret got buffed, and it wasn’t much utility they got.

    Sorry that ended up being so long. ^^;; Happy hunting.

  25. Seidouyumi

    To Varsar- Unfortunately this is the way of all things. Some people like to explain, and others don’t. I’d love it if they did explain things better though.

    To Hilz- They haven’t changed this yet. What they have said is that they WILL change this in the future. Your boar having aggro issues has nothing to do with this change, and quite frankly, there have been a lot of aggro issues. I noticed it last night again. I had mobs ignoring my pet and attacking me instead, and that was even with Growl.

    To Webcricket- Pets have different applications. It sort of happened naturally. Certain pets are better at tanking than others. Other pets do high levels of damage. I think that Blizzard has been trying to avoid doing something that is going to have to happen. Pets are going to have to be set up in clear deliniations. Basically, Tanks, DPS’ers, and Casters.

    To the Group as a whole- I had it happen again. I had a mob bypass my pet and attack my hunter. I didn’t even heal, but I somehow pulled a second mob off my pet without trying.

    I did find the Growl bug though. Apparently, even though it isn’t shown, Charge gives a one second universal cool down to the other skills. Growl hits automatically right after the first swing, but it shouldn’t. It should hit after the UCD is over. Because Growl is hitting at the same time as the first hit, this gives Growl it’s extra charge. THIS IS STILL THERE, btw.

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  27. Cryptography

    Threat management is a problem for all classes. It appears that some earlier posters don’t understand how threat works.

    If you are in melee range, you need to generate 110% of the threat to steal aggro from the current tank.

    If you are back at long range, you require 130% of the tanks threat to steal aggro.

    Hunters and most casters need to stand away from the target!

    If you need to steal aggro off someone, then they need to stop generating threat, and you need to get in close (or your pet needs to) to maximise your chances.

    I have been using updated versions of omen to track threat generation before, during and after the 2.4 series patches. Its numbers on growl threat generation may not be accurate, but its doing a very good job of predicting just when I’ll pull aggro off my pets.

    Threat generation using boar with charge is reported as being much less than pre patch. I haven’t looked into the ordering of growl vs charge claw and bite but piggy holds aggro better when charge goes off, so its still getting some effect.

    This same hunter has a cat as well and I haven’t noticed a large difference between them as far as their abilities to hold aggro post patch. They both seem to (and omen reports) less threat than pre-patch. I am definately being affected by the spirit mana regen nerf so have been pacing my shots a lot more carefully. I will be looking to get a fair chunk more +spr on my gear now.

  28. Varsar

    Seidouyumi (and everyone else) There is indeed some kind of change in pets holding aggro off multiple mobs. if you deal damage to one mob the other(s)will aggro you, if your pet just ignores it, you pull aggro. I had a mob aggro my pet while I was typing a message to a friend and just shrugged it off know my pet was fine (even though he was on passive) for a few seconds.. much to my surprise the mob left my pet and came after me. Neither my pet or I did a thing.. I tried it several more times and it repeatedly happened. Eyes of the beast is great for getting a mob to aggro your pet without doing any damage.

    I figured I’d try it on a different mob type (the first were the ogers in zanga marsh) So I went back to hellfire and tried it on the boars there.. and they didn’t deaggro I had to set the pet attacking because it took my pet to 40% life. I tried it on the Orcs in hellfire and I had about a 40% rate of them coming after me. I went to Silithus and couldn’t get a single mob to come after me. I couldn’t even pull aggro off my pet with us both attacking.

    Pet Threat is just weird now and I really don’t have a clue what it is.

    The best solution to multiple mobs is to alternate what mob you pet is attacking.

    If the problem is indeed focus dumbs causing growl not to cast, it would explain why my Gorilla is fine on one mob these days All he has is bite and growl.

  29. Seidouyumi

    Varsar-

    Thanks for confirming this. I’ve had it happen not only on my Hunter, but my lvl 51 (oh my, I hadn’t leveled Shijoshin is SO long!) Warlock. I respecced her to full Demonology and even with Cleave on the Felguard, I had to be careful of some mobs ignoring him and attacking her.

    I’ll work this up and post it on the Bugs forum. This has GOT to be a bug.

  30. Elaith

    Regarding pulling a mob off your pet that you havnt even aggro’ed, Ive seen that also, and i suspect i know what is causing it.

    When my ravager/boar attacks a mob, all the aggro is directed on one mob, any other mobs that attack the pet are only ‘held’ there by the monster seeing the pet first. (no screech/howl/thunderstomp here)

    Obviously a heal on the pet will pull the 2nd mob off, but i believe a ‘spirit bond’ heal is now strong enough to pull aggro also.
    Ive seen it a number of times when deliberately testing aggro on lower level mobs, and i dont think ive seen it prior to 2.4.

  31. Seidouyumi

    Elaith-

    None of my hunters are high enough to have that yet. What’s more, I’ve had the mob come right at me even if they see my pet first.

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